Mike Brock, a former technology executive who writes about American politics and knows many figures in that industry, talks with Pinchbeck in the days after a round of elections and the release of a large batch of Epstein emails. Brock argues the Trump administration is better described as a regime pursuing regime change from within, notes military personnel on American streets, and says the eight Senate Democrats who voted to end the government shutdown do not understand what time it is. He explains his essay The Simulation Is Collapsing as an account of epistemic closure among the centrist technocratic middle, which lives on polls, focus groups, consultants and what Jon Stewart called ultra-processed speech, and invokes Upton Sinclair on the difficulty of convincing someone whose salary depends on not understanding.
Guest: Mike Brock
In brief
- Brock argues the current administration should be called a regime, because it is attempting to change the nature of power within the country's borders rather than govern.
- He says the eight Democratic senators who caved on the shutdown misread the political environment they now operate in and have no plan for escaping it.
- He reads the recent election results and the open conflict inside the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society as signs that the simulation, meaning the establishment's closed narrative, is breaking down.
- He explains Democratic paralysis through incentives, citing Upton Sinclair on salaries and comprehension and pointing to a fundraising regime built on corporate donors and consultants.
- He argues that entry to the American professional class now requires particular credentials, speech and residence in a few expensive cities, and that the resulting collapse of social mobility drives some voters to back Trump in the hope he burns the system down.
- He observes that Trump and his circle attack nearly everyone but largely leave Bernie Sanders alone.
Full text
I mean, Trump has overreached. JD Vance has overreached. Steven Miller has overreached. And now they have this entirely new dynamic, right? You see the half of the employees at the the Heritage Foundation now being like, "What the we we haveing Nazi supporters like all around us, like what's going on?" And you see what's going on in the Federalist Society. There's an open war now. Like, I think this is actually a somewhat encouraging sign uh that we've seen over the last few weeks. the the election, the Republican civil war. State Republican parties are kind of backing away from the gerrymandering war. It doesn't paint a pretty picture for this band of cretins that that have arranged themselves around the executive branch.
Uh, how you doing, Mike? I'm doing all right. You know, it's uh it's a cloudy day here in Los Angeles. a rare occurrence for us. Into every life a little cloud. Good to see you. Good to see you, Daniel. How are you doing? I'm great. You know, I've been enjoying your um you know, outpouring. Um and um I figured it would be fun to just connect for a bit and talk about what's happening. Um I mean it's I think both of us are finding it hard not to just be glued to the uh you know rampage of current events. Um would you say that would you say that's a fair assessment?
Oh, I mean actually I find it quite painful actually. Like I you know I uh I woke up this morning and I saw the the news the Epstein emails and then the the 20,000 email jump drop and I kind of spaced out like for like 20 minutes and and then like forced myself to like go on and start like seeing what commentators were saying. Um I mean I you know this stuff makes me like genuinely mad. Um uh like I I like you know you say glued. I'm I I I I I I man I I wish I wish nothing more than to escape this this this moral hell that we are now currently living through this moral vacuum.
I mean I mean like I mean I don't know if I don't know if I mean I guess glued but but not not not I I didn't put the glue down. I'm I'm being I'm being uh pulled along by the by by the tides and the tides and and and the currents of of history against my will. Yeah. Well, it's like watching a car crash while we're inside the car. Yes. And uh you know, I always think of you because I mean you're you from the whole tech world and you're close to a lot of these characters, so it gives you a unique kind of perspective.
I mean, um, um, yeah. I mean, there's so many things we could start talking about. Um, um, the shutdown. I saw you were ra you were raging about the shutdown. Yeah, I was pretty upset about that. Um, yeah. I mean, um, and what well, what's what's your kind of what what what are some of your perspectives right now? um around um I mean do you see you know cuz it's like um you by the time they develop a whole new Democratic party with a spine we'll be um you know kind of we'll have chips in our brain and be like serving Elon Musk his you know quissants and well I'm not that cynical.
You're more cynical than me Daniel. Wow. I mean I mean I I you know look I mean I I I think that the Democrats the eight Democrats that that caved are um well I mean I I to to to use the the turn of phrase that that I've I've grown fond of which honestly like both both the both the fascists and the anti-fascist use is that I don't think I don't think these people know what time it is, right? like I don't you know that I I think that um you know there's this there's this thought process that exists uh you know I've a character I wrote a piece called the simulation is collapsing and the simulation is is a metaphor right for sort of epistemic closure for for the narratives that like certain uh people live within and the c the centrist technocratic middle um live in this world of you know like like like polls and focus groups and consultants and workshopped messaging and uh I think uh you know uh uh John John Stewart I think called it in a in a recent interview and I love that the love the way he framed it was was ultrarocessed speech and and and I think these people um you know, especially these eight Democratic senators um simply just do not understand uh the political environment that they're now operating within and they don't understand how to get out of it either. even some of the in fact most of the the Democratic senators who who who voted no to this right this this is a administration um such as we call it I I don't like to call it an administration I like to call it a a regime um because that's what what what it is um and it is it is engaged in a attempt at regime change uh to um change the the nature of of power within our political border.
That is what is happening. I mean, there are mil there's military on our streets, right? I mean, have people not I mean, do people not notice that this is that this is happening? Um, sorry, I'm going to plug my phone in here because the battery is low. I don't want to lose you guys. Let me see. So, the there we go. Yeah, we have power. Okay. Um, so um um yeah, and and and I think but but you know, it's it's not all all is not lost, right? I mean, I I think that I I I was quite encouraged by the the the the the elections last Tuesday night.
I mean, I think that showed that, as I said, the the simulation is collapsing. And I think this establishment that's sort of hanging on for dear life and they're caught up in sort of, you know, I mean, Upton Sinclair, you know, the the famous sort of, you know, so social socialist politician from California during the progressive era who who basically said that like you know uh it's impossible to convince a man of something when his uh you know when his when his salary depends on not understanding it. Um I think is is really like the the way in which to sort of understand these people and sort of the incentive structure that they're stuck within, right? because they've gotten very used to uh a a politics that you know you know is is is tied up in in a fundraising uh regime of of corporate donors of of of of friendly there's consulting cotton wool yeah I mean yeah I mean that's one way of putting it I guess I mean but um and I think and I think increasingly uh they are being revealed to be uh wearing no clothes to to use the to use the idiom there. Um and I think so go ahead.
Oh no, just going back a little bit. I mean I also felt like um you know they focused the entire uh shutdown kind of idea on these healthcare subsidies uh which obviously was you know a drastic thing and um you know some people are arguing that they actually the Democrats have gained political capital because they made it so clear that the Republicans are the ones who you know inflicted this but I but you know I I I sort of am shocked that they didn't talk about all the principled reasons to not, you know, verify the budget, uh, including the unbelievable billions of dollars going to ICE. I mean, I don't know how many how many billions ICE gets, but it's like, uh, I find that, uh, frightening, you know, like I I'm already hearing stories of people that I know. I mean, I saw friends last night for dinner and their friend was Egyptian and, you know, just got married here and his wife has dual citizenship and, you know, they they knocked on his door. He mistakenly opened it and they took him away and he's been in detention for like 5 months now.
No hearing. That's horrifying. Um, no trial. Um, you know, I there was a big article in the Times say, but all these guys who were asylum seekers from Iran, you know, some of them didn't have they came here illegally, but they had reported they were seeking asylum who were just sent back to Iran, you know, who we just bombed, uh, where, you know, their lives are now imperiled. They might be tortured or killed. Um and um so this this this horrifying uh monstrosity that we've created uh we're now giving what 50 $60 billion. It's like the ninth largest funded military. They five fivex 5x their funding.
It's insane. It's insane. And and it's like um you know why did not the dem why didn't the Democratic senators make an issue out of that? Like why why is that? Yeah. Well, you you want to know the answer? There's an answer. I mean the answer is that um you know and I' I've talked to people like I like I know I know I I know people on the hill right like I so like you know from the the the my my corporate world like I know lobbyists I worked with lobbyists I have friends that are lobbyists um some of them are good people actually right who you know who who who will agree with things I'm about to say right which is that um you know a lot of a lot of the dem a lot of the Democrats uh on the Hill I mean maybe half of the caucus is just like I mean they're they're just I mean you have the kind of the Chris Murphy camp and then you have sort of like the the Tim Kaine camp and there is a genuine disagreement within uh both the Senate and House caucus about whether or not what we're looking at right now represents um what I would suggest it is which is like a uh a a a slow motion self coup um that this uh executive is engaged in.
I I very strongly believe I don't see what's slow motion about it. It's like 10 times faster than what Putin did or what happened in Hungary. It's actually happening at at a lightning speed really. Well, I mean I mean yeah I mean touche but uh I I think I think that uh well you know in some ways though uh I think that's was to our favor actually as sound weird. I think the fact that they're moving so fast and breaking so many things so quickly um you know like Orban took like seven years to do what they've tried to do in 6 months and it is true right as as uh as as Jefferson warned that like you know that that that humans are predisposed to tolerate the insufferable.
Um, and you know, we you know, we talk about like a a boiled frog and and and stuff like that. And that's certainly, I think, a better strategy if you're going to hollow out the democratic content of democratic institutions that you one should do so slowly without imposing any pain. But these people have decided to, you know, go after a sort of a a sort of a a right-wing Trosky-esque maximum program at maximum speed. and uh and in so doing they have uh animated uh a great amount of opposition and as it pertains to sort of these Democrats in Congress who sort of simply don't believe this is happening. I mean there I mean there there are I mean there's a lot of people who are just sort of lost in their their normaly bias there or or or or just like unwilling to um realize that sometimes uh doing the right thing is going to cost you something.
it's going to cost that donor that you know a lot a lot of the Democrats you know get paid win or lose like I saw there was um they had a hearing with I think Camela Harris's you know campaign strategist who was getting paid $2 million and they asked him what his bonus was if she won and he was like he didn't want to mention that it was like another $2 million so you know it was you know $2 million for running a losing campaign which isn't bad and then four million you know if you win that's a colossal amount of Um, so yeah, it seems clear, it's seemed that way for years that the the Democrats are equally incentivized to to lose um, you know, elections or or or fights or whatever. Yeah, it's it's not it's not just that. I mean, I mean, they they do want to win. I mean, political parties are are obviously I mean, gaining power is is obviously the the great incentive of of any political party of any kind, but they are they're certainly deluded by uh the bubbles that that they're in. I mean, they're very used to a different kind of politics, right?
They're I think a lot of there's this this theory of politics, right? this the kind of thermosatic theory of politics that you know let that that things just sort of go left and then right and then back and forth and everything's a reaction and a counterreaction you know and I and I think a lot of like establishing Democrats just sort of think that way and they're just sort of like look I mean people may not like us they may hate us they may hate the fact that like I you know I you know I I sip wine in in in Soma Valley with Silicon Valley CEOs that that none of none of the none of my voters like but you know the Republicans are up so bad they're going have no choice but to vote for me next year. And that that is kind of I think like you know the the cynicism and I think people see that and it's why they like hate these people so much now and and and and why there is like such a um uh sort of a populist upswell now. Um and I I I I mean I think they're doomed, right? I mean I think that I think the Democratic establishment is done for, right?
You know what I mean? Uh I I I I think we are seeing the beginnings of like what is kind of a Democratic tea party like thing now that is going to I think consume the establishment. I don't think the Democratic party that goes into the midterms next year is going to be led by what we currently call the establishment. I think they are they are in their death rows right now as a result of of the dynamic that I'm describing. Well, I mean, I hope that uh that that's true and I and I, you know, I reach out to you partially because I know you're more tied in with the uh establishment in different in different areas, including me.
They don't like me as much as they used to. It turns out um but uh I mean, you know, I guess a big question has been to what extent they're going to have sort of uh manipulated the elections in 2026. And in that way, the election last week was promising because it didn't really look like they had the capacity to manipulate it. Uh much as we had maybe would have been concerned, but also they were and and and it is interest it is interesting, right? Because we are now seeing um you know, we've seen like what like several states like we're seeing pretty fierce opposition in North Carolina um to the redistricting plans.
Indiana has basically said like the Indiana Republican Party has basically said no, we're not we're not going to do the they're backing away. Um you saw this in Utah as well. The Utah Republicans are sort of backing down from the the the gerrymandering stuff that Trump was pushing them to do. And that suggests to me a really I mean that's that's a that's a good sign for us on the pro-democracy side. It suggests that some of the state Republican parties kind of see the writing on the wall and might are are starting to kind of hedge their bets now and they're like maybe we shouldn't put all of our eggs in the Trump and and fascist basket right now cuz the peoples are mad.
Um and so you're you're kind of seeing a increasing lack of will um among uh you know state Republican parties um to just tow Trump's line. And that's a very recent development, you know. Uh I mean I I mean I think the the the the we had a Republican congressman uh today has kind of come out and uh has like like you know in in in response to the the Michael Wolf revelation and kind of saying yeah like we need we need to understand what what Trump's involvement is here like and and you can and you have the Marjorie Taylor Green thing. I mean the they've I mean Trump has has overreached, JD Vance has overreached, Steven Miller has overreached and um and now they have this entirely new dynamic, right? You see the you've got like you know half of the employees at the the Heritage Foundation now being like what the Like why why are why are like what we we have Nazi supporters like you know all around us.
Like what's going on? and like the uh the head of the heritage is on fire and then and you see what's going on in the Federalist Society, there's an open war now. Like you you you suddenly have a bunch of conservatives, especially like Jewish conservatives are like, "What the fuck?" Like um and so I I I think I think this is actually um a somewhat encouraging sign uh that we've seen over the last few weeks. the the the election, the Republican civil war, uh the fact that state democratic state republican parties are kind of backing away from the gerrymandering war. Um it's not a it doesn't it doesn't paint a pretty picture uh for this band of of of cretins that that have arranged themselves around the executive branch.
Yeah. I mean hopefully hopefully that's correct. I mean um you know they will escalate of course. Yeah. But but also I mean um you know this is a you know I mean we could talk about what's underway economically um in terms of you know kind of um the these policies which are having such a negative impact on like the middle class people and so on. Um and that seems intentional you know or farmers bankrupt farmers then buy their lands. Vance is an investor in in a in a fund that basically does that, right? Like they when farmlands go bankrupt, they buy it up and and and then they sometimes rehire the same farmers to be like surf on what used to be their own land.
Um so um yeah. So so I mean in a way when you have this kind of machine heading in this direction, you have to keep finding new scapegoats, right? because they can't they have to constantly distract people from thinking that it's actually Trump and Musk and Zuckerberg you know and the Koch brothers and the Kors people who are actually the problem so it it's almost well there is something we should talk we there is something we should talk about on that point that really worries me but uh yes please come right back to I was going to say that so the anti-semitism thing seems inevitable it's you know clear they've been flirting with that you know Bannon and Musk have made Nazi salutes doge can you know SS material. I'm probably sure a lot of the ICE officers are actually Proud Boys or white Christian nationalist extremists, you know, and so on. So, I mean, um, it's sort of tending in that direction.
Um, and, um, I mean, I could see a situation where, you know, there's a concerted effort to get the Jews out of the US, to basically send the Jews packing back to, you know, I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's going to happen. Like, I I I I don't think it gets that far. In fact, like I I I think like um like I I mean honestly I'm seeing even in my kind of network I mean I have friends who are like like anti- anti-Trump people like they they irritate the out of me but like you know I I try not to burn every bridge but um friends who are not anti-Trump people, friends who are still No, I mean there's this like you know I have like you know the kind of like this kind of the the sort of the, you know, the I mean the the sort of the kind of people who are kind of like none of the above types on the right, you know, um the Jonah Goldberg type people who sort of like see him as sort of like the Northstar, the sort of like very irritating position that like there's there's no acceptable choices. Um you know, and they they I mean they're they're a dwindling group of people.
Um, but you know, I mean, I I think they've like really they the sort of stance that they've had, the sort of like no enemies to my right stance, I think is like really blowing up in their face. And now you're seeing like I mean the Ben Shapiro and Eric Ericson and these these figures are now sort of like realizing that that you know they they there's a noose slowly being lowered down around their neck and they're starting to fight back. Um, and so I mean I I I didn't they didn't care as long as the news was aimed at, you know, black and brown people, but now they're like, uh, oh, but I mean that's classic, right? I mean, well, I mean I mean I mean like I mean uh uh Yeah. um you know, first they came for the and and and so any anyway and and so I mean I I uh um yeah, I mean I I'm I'm I'm yeah I'm the most I'm most like optimistic I've been this year like over the last few weeks.
Um because it really does seem like these these these have really stepped in it. And I think now the more important conversation I think on the pro-democracy side is and look there's going to be fights ahead and like you know they're probably going to like jan6 of the midterms and it's going to be messy and stuff like I I get that but like I I'm optimistic that a engaged American majority is going to push through that next year and and the Democrats will take control of Congress on on this trajectory one way or another. And I think the bigger question that I'm worried about is how like how committed is this political coalition going to be to setting aside inter nyine divisions and really focusing once they're in control of one or both chambers of of Congress. Um exercising those article one powers at their apex against against the article 2 branch. um the Congress has a lot of powers uh in the that that they don't haven't really used, right?
Like one for example is that um Congress has a a power known as as the inherent contempt power um and the court the the article 3 branch has this as as well and it gives Congress the power to um arrest any American including member of of of the government. um any any American who who refuses to uh uh uh you know respond to a a subpoena um uh before before Congress. And Congress actually has a jail. People should look this up. There's actually a jail. It hasn't hasn't been used in like 90 years like in the basement of the the Capitol building. Um and it um and technically the sergeant-at-arms of of the Congress has the constitutional power uh uh to uh you know through through through his through his or her authority uh and and through deputization um to send somebody out into the world with with the power of of the inherent uh inherent contempt power and and drag that person before Congress um uh to testify.
And what I would hope uh that we're impressing upon these Democrats who are really worried about their you know corporate donors and you know their their Silicon Valley donors is that they are prepared when they take power to hold hearings that drag Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg and all these before uh you know like before the country with the cameras rolling and ask some very serious questions like him. Did you when when you gave uh you know how how much how much was that that 24 karat gold based ornament that you custom designed for Trump that you gave to him just you know what like with within you know less than less than 48 hours of of receiving targeted tariff relief on on the i Phone importations from from from China's uh factories in Shenzhen. Like what like what like what like that that looked like a quidd proquo. What what do the do you have to say for yourself? tell the American people like I mean like I mean I I think like that is like what I think the the pro-democracy coalition I don't care if you're like a centrist or you're a progressive like we we need to demand that uh these politicians um act on beha like act on behalf of of of the interests of the American people uh the rule of law and the constitution and and and bring some morality and sanity back and I think we we we need a aggressive Congress that uses its its constitutional authority at its maximum, especially at a time when the article 2 branch is trying to use its authority beyond its maximum.
We need to restore that Misonsonian balance that has been sent ary. Um um yeah, I mean that seems like a long um you know since I know your special is the tech world. What do you think about this uh tech embrace of uh Christianity? Um I mean I I recently got thrown over I don't think it's real. I mean I know that Peter Teal is like doing this like people know about this like antichrist thing. Um it's like honestly it's like let's explain for a little bit. But I mean it's there's a there's a group called I think article 27 article 17. Yeah. They're kind of like trying to create this new tech.
But I have actually seen it. I mean you know Brock Pierce somebody I've known for a long time because his Instagram is now you know endless Christian propaganda. Another friend of mine Nicole Patrice uh who used to work closely with Teal. She now had a thing for she invited me a Whats App group people who are like reestablishing their traditional faith. And I was like, "Guys, I actually, you know, I think I quoted like Thomas Payne about how Thomas Payne wrote about God and they threw me off the chat. I've been getting thrown off Whats App chats with tech people recently." But um Oh my god.
Well, I mean Well, look, I mean, it's it it's like it's I mean, it's easy to understand, right? It it's just the fact that I mean, it's it's it's pathetic, right? Uh we're we're in the we're in the world of pos, right? Where this giant Shakespearean tragedy. So um you have the you have the tech world and uh things are kind of like not great really I think in in the tech world. I think there's like an understanding right now that like all of this kind of quote unquote growth uh that's kind of being driven by what looks increasingly like an AI bubble and a crypto bubble um is uh increasingly uh on like fragile ground and I think there's like an understanding like I just sort of the spidey sense that everyone has that if the Republicans and Trump and and JD Vance like don't succeed in consolidating power that what is going to happen is a regulatory and taxation hammer is going to come down so hard on them.
You know, Lena Khan's going to come back to the FTC and it's going to be brutal for them. And so I think they're like trying to just think through and like some of and cynically and and and through like self-rationalization a way in which they can sort of attach themselves to a uh a salailable coalition uh that can like hold on to power and protect them uh from what's coming. And it's sad. It's sad. I mean they're not going to succeed at this. And and honestly like a lot of like really like you know there's a lot of pe I'm not religious myself but I you know I know people who are and um and you're seeing this there's like people within the evangelical community even and uh Catholic churches and stuff like that that have started to be like what the is this like Peter Teal like what what are they talking about?
And I don't think it's landing. Um, I think it's a a sign of uh a desperate attempt to um, you know, resituate a political coalition that can protect protect oligarchic interests. And it's I I actually laugh at it because I don't think it I I don't think it has like any real chance of of success really. Um because the Christian nationalists like the real serious Christian nationalists like the NS Lions of the world and the Russell votes of the world and these like don't they I mean they hate these they they you know they want to they want to make like Peter Teal walk the plank like ultimately like I mean they're not they're not natural allies. So, it's a really it's a really like pathetic attempt to to try and uh um uh commandeer uh what they see as some sort of like getable part of of of that political coalition when it's really not.
That's my that's that's my that's my brutally honest take. Mike, can you see me by the way? Cuz I I I can't see you. I only see myself. I see I see I see a nice photo of you. Oh, there you are. Yeah. There. Right. That actually says the reverse thing like when you disable video it enables video and when you try to disables it anyway. So um yeah I mean um and what did you make of uh I mean uh I do think there's like something though where they're searching for um kind of a legitimation you know a way to legitimate this whole thing they're doing.
And um so Teal, his philosophical enterprise, as bizarre as it is, they're trying to create a justification for this whole shtick they're on, you know? I mean, he's like searching around for it, you know? I mean, what do you what do you think of his um theories around like the Antichrist Thurberg or, you know, but also it's very much connected to a kind of um I mean, Teal talks about being religious but not spiritual, you know, so I don't know what he actually believes. I imagine that, you know, he's more or less a scientific rationalist uh and yet he sees the value of the trappings of religion. He made Vance go from an atheist to to a Catholic uh person and so on.
Somebody asked, "Who is Mike Brock?" Hannah asked, "Mike, do you want to just explain who you are?" So, we didn't do that. Who am I? Who am I? Explain to who I am. Who who is this thing? Who is this construction of of of of uh of matter that that that that um I I'm I'm a I'm a former uh I guess I'm a former tech executive like turned like writer of some substack. I don't know what I'm doing Hannah actually. I'm just here talking to you. Uh I I I used to I used to uh work uh in in in tech. Um, and I have taken a uh unhealthy interest in uh and in in the arguments uh around maintaining our our democracy and and sort of our basic liberal values against what what I see as a uh a confluence of of of interests that seem hellbent on on bringing an end to those things that I value so greatly and and and and love about this country so much.
That's who I am. Is that is that an okay explanation? Yeah. I mean, uh, you were a CEO of some tech company. Kind of a Yeah, exactly. I I won't drag them into this. We'll we'll try to be gentle. Um, and I I I really appreciate your your writing, uh, your your Substack. Uh, and yeah, somebody said, "You're brilliant. Hang on there every word." Uh, I encourage you all to think for yourself. That's like one of the things I I it's one of the virtues I'm I'm trying to imbue on people critical thinking. It says Mike is the greatest. Um David Dudah is also on your side.
How do you got to get all cast characters here? Oh no. Oh no. I have fans. This is weird. I I've been trying to convince Mike that he should venture magazine. Like I feel we need a uh sort of antidote to the free press. Um but uh that that that process has gone. I keep floating out that trial balloon, but let's let's go back to discussion around um uh yeah, sort of like this effort to create an ideology that provides some justification for their just desire for absolute power, I guess, is is what it is. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I I mean, it's I mean, it's just what it is, right?
I mean, uh, Peter Teal, I mean, I' I've never met the man, by the way, although, um, I know I've spoken to a lot of people who have, um, and, uh, especially over the last year and and and those who have, who sort of agree with my position and they've sort of like relayed their impressions to me of the man and how he thinks about things. I mean, there I, you know, I I and I've and I've consumed a lot of, you know, everything that that I can to try and sort of understand him. I you know he he gave a interview um with the New York Times. Uh Ross Duth um has the has a podcast interesting times at the New York Times which was which was really focused on on exploring conversations uh in in this quote unquote new right. I watched that I watched that interview that that he gave with with great interest.
um you know the one in which he hesitated on whether or not humanity should survive at all which which I think became became quite a quite a meme. Um and I and I and I wrote a piece about that. Um I mean look I mean you know he he's he's he's a he's a sort of like mental type that I recognize. I know a lot of people who think like him at least sort of architecturally, you know, systems thinker. Uh, you know, really just like I mean loves loves technology and science and sort of the technological and scientific conception of progress and you know you you see you know you know you see this all over the place.
I mean I mean mo most people who think like that still tend to have some overriding morals that that don't take them as far down the path as he has taken himself drunk I think on his own power and his own bubble in 2009 you know he famously wrote a piece in uh so K in in a in a blog for the Kato Institute uh the blog uh by goes by I don't know if it still exists but it was called Ko Unbound um where he laid out an argument that democracy and freedom are are incompatible. Um really just sort of applying the sort of platonic argument that that that that tyranny of the majority will will ultimately undermine freedom stupid understanding of political theory. But like yeah, he he's he's not a sophist I I don't consider him like a sophisticated philosophical thinker by any means. I think he's a r he's he's a rationalization engine towards like a very like a very narrow set of instrumental goals which is which is his his theory of technological and scientific progress um to the exclusion of of of whatever forces political democratic or cultural that might stand in the way of that. By the way, somebody had asked me who I was, so I might as well answer.
I'm also a writer. I've written a number of books. My first book, Breaking Up in the Head, was on psychedelic shamanism that came out. It helped kind of launch the new psychedelic revival. I wrote a book actually about prophecies, like the Mayan prophecies, Aztec and Hopi prophecies and Christian ideas of the apocalypse and all that stuff. Uh, that was a bestseller way back when. And I also have a Substack that that's pretty popular. And I do online courses. And eventually this will go on You Tube. So, I should have put out that little reminder for people if they're enjoying it, they should subscribe and and like and all that good stuff.
Um, you've been going after Teal's boy, uh, Mike Salana. Salana. What's going on there? What do you what what what's your problem with I think Mike Salana is he like chief marketing officer for um Yeah, I mean I mean something something like that, right? I mean, uh, so I mean, I've been, yeah, I mean, he pro he probably, you know, I assume he thinks that like, you know, he's living rentree in my head, but like really, I mean, I think he's like a really useful foil uh, Pirate Wires, this this publication uh, that they have uh, um, that he's so proud of that that he thinks is is somehow speaking truth to power.
um that he's some sort of he unironically doesn't seem to recognize that he is in in fact power and and and speaks on its behalf. Uh you know, he thinks he's talking against liberal orthodoxy and you know, from a a supposedly like libertarian angle. Um you know, I I I think uh I I got really upset uh at a take that they had uh not upset is the right thing. I shouldn't say I was upset, but I I I took to task a piece I think about maybe three month three or four weeks ago that they had written on Heather Cox Richardson. Um, which I thought was I mean like I mean it wasn't like factually like wrong in the sense that like Heather Cox Richardson has demonstrabably made some errors like in in her in her positions, but I thought was a very unfair take.
Like for example, you know, she had attributed uh the assassin of of Charlie Kirk. Uh you know, there was a there was a rumor going around that he was associated with with gropers, which is a a word used to describe followers of of of Nick Fuentes. Um but she actually had walked that back by the next morning on her on on her podcast. And so she had like issued a correction and I had sort of like flagged that, you know, to uh Katherine D and and Blake Dodge who wrote wrote the piece. Um and in a in a in a response piece that I wrote. Um, and that like resulted in like a big back and forth and you know they they accused me of like being unintelligent and like you know like like uh um and I spent some time after that just like reading through pirate wires and just like just just realizing like what a what a piece of of of like garbage it really is.
uh which which acts as if it's some sort of like punk rock sort of, you know, speaking against the orthodoxy. Um when when really it's it's I mean it's a weird thing, right? He's like supposedly is a full-time employee of of of of Peter Thiel's uh venture capital firm uh founders fund, but is also the editor-inchief of of of this. Well, one of the things that TL realized um a while back is that um you know the sort of culture world really mattered to him like cultural perception you know he sort of you know he definitely funded a lot you know we were we were at Dime Dime Square together where he funded a kind of like social club for a few years I went to his event in Miami and yeah they they do have this kind of you know punk rock you know we're actually the sort of um occult underground around who are like doing the cool things. Um, and it's been interesting to see the way the right-wing actually has assimilated kind of what used to be all kind of like the left-wing tropes, the radical sort of punk rock tropes.
And meanwhile the the liberal or the left world became very kind of like prissy and focused on kind of identity and and you know vulnerability and victimization and kind of and kind of lost its its like looseness and and like freedom to express itself which I think is one of the many reasons we ended up in this cluster in a way. Yeah. I mean let me just cut through it. Like I I I I look at I mean I wrote I wrote a piece today which is I think why you brought this up, right? um where I mentioned Mike Salana and uh and and and Michael Wolf and Jeffrey Epstein in the same breath which which you know some might think is unfair but my point was is you know Salana is the editor-inchief of of apparently a journalistic enterprise.
Michael Wolf also passing himself off as a journalist who has apparently been sitting on some pretty explosive information since 2015. Um, as to sort of the the relationship between Epstein, for people who don't know, maybe we should point out that Wolf was I think he was like a Vanity Fair writer, a New York magazine writer and then he wrote some very big bestselling books including I think was it a biography of Trump or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was uh and and which Yeah. And so I I my my first read when I was like reading these emails was like when I looked at the date on them, I'm like what the I mean, how you've known like this guy was like when you think about the victims, when you think of you know uh uh you know the suicide of of of you know of of the victim uh that that happened in in in the last in the last two years.
Yeah. Um, just once again for people people who haven't totally paying attention in these these emails from like 2011 and Michael Wolf is basically kind of like in there with Epstein, he's like, "Oh yeah, like maybe you you know maybe um you can get Trump to, you know, do something or whatever." Like it's it's kind of like he's being his like adviser or conigly or something. Um yeah. Uh which doesn't seem like the proper role of a journalist, right? Uh, and so I I took him to task for that. And I was just just really struck by the lack of morals that people have in our society that the the sort of the moral vacuum and that that that someone like Michael Wolf must exist within um to engage in transactionalism like that where the moral context is is sort of uh around him is sort of like like beyond sort of like the immediate like sort of instrumental goal of of of whatever the he was pursuing.
Um, and I just found that disgusting and I noticed that most people weren't talking about it. They're mostly focused on how this like Trump over which was great, right? But like I was definitely one of these weird characters and now he's like all over my You Tube. I mean, he's definitely he's got a big substack. He's definitely taken one of the there's like like Heather Cox Richardson is another one of these people who stepped into this sort of like you know ongoing punditry role uh for like you know the liberal side or progressive side or whatever and yeah he does seem like a bit of a questionable uh figure or ambiguous.
I mean I mean it seems like it. I mean I I've seen all I need to see. I've made my I've made my value judgments about a man's character as of this morning. Um um and yeah and so like I group Mike Salana in uh as somebody who I I I I see as a as an equally like immoral character, right? Like I think I mean the the purpose I think of of of that of their pursuit, right? is is to uh is to engage in in in distraction and and demagoguery of um you know of left-wing cultural excess which you know in some cases exists and and and I've called it out like myself but like um you know any any serious journalistic enterprise that you know Pirate Wires like pretends to be um might have something to say about the fact that the current president of the United States um is engaged in uh massive unconstitutional violations, uh Fourth Amendment violations, uh the masked men on the the enormity of Trump's corruption, the amount of incredible like the billions of dollars he's made, it's so insane that people don't even know how to talk about it.
Trump Trump coin Trump coin uh you know a free 747 luxury jumbo jet that that that I think is like a straightforward violation in the imalments clause but people say it's not because of some sort of legal fiction that it'll be donated to his presidential library which by I mean I I don't know the I I mean I I I I can you imagine the founding fathers like listening to this sort of like mental gymnastics um and and then then of course like by you know executive border uh extending article five NATO article 5 like protections to the to the state of Qar um you know I mean I mean like the level of corruption for the pardoning of what's his name Jason and Hang who was the one who sort of orchestrated the Trump coin yeah yeah CZ from Binance like are you kidding me right that's and then they just pardoned um all these guys who are like Russian agents Chinese agents Um, yeah, it's it's pretty terrifying. It's it's basically all the the violent Jan Sixers, like three or four of which have been rearrested for violent crime since. Like, I mean, it it's it's like it, you know, we could we could probably spend the next hour and not and not fully exhaust uh the corruption that we have seen. Pearson makes the right point, which is something I think about all the time. How do we make this epic corruption comprehensible to his supporters?
you know, it still seems there. I mean, if his, you know, maybe his approval rating is holding at 37, you know, some say they say 40%, which is still insane. Um, but there's clearly a base of I don't know how many, 50 million, 30 million people who are completely on the Trump train. And it feels like anything just just bounces off like you know kind of um offenses that would just destroy you know anybody else or just like um I mean you know even if it comes out like I really wonder because this Epstein thing has been like this long endless script tease you know so finally it's like okay you know Epstein writes he was with underage victims at my house for hours and there's more stuff coming but it's like I sort of feel at this point like it's going to come out that you know He did the most horrible things imaginable. Everyone's going to be like, "So what?" You know, and it's not even going to make a difference, you know?
Well, I mean I mean there's a there's a story there, right, about like how you get to that kind of uh cultural condition uh where people are sort of able to see past all of this and and sort of see what they want to see. And you know there's I mean I mean actually there there's a lot of good like social psychology on this that that that that explains like why MAGA exists. Like some of it is is the fault of the left and and and the the technocratic center. Not not not in the sense that like most people think right like I don't think MAGA exists because people on the left think there's more than two genders. That's like not like what what's going on here.
what's really going on, right, is is something that, you know, uh, you know, my my philosopher friend Vlad Vlad Vexler, right, in the UK sort of refers to as as this sort of this this sense the sense of dispossession um in the culture among among those um who feel like they can't touch and affect politics and this has sort of led to fertile ground for populist demagoguery. You know, one one thing to sort of like see this and to see that it's not specifically like a Trump phenomenon is is the existence of like these Trump Bernie voters, right, in like West Virginia, right? Um some like you know you when you see like a lot of MAGA voters and you ask them is there like a Democrat that you would vote for? when you go to sort of like the, you know, like like poor Appalachia, you know, or rural North Carolina, you get large numbers of them who said say they would vote for Bernie Sanders. And the reason for that is not necessarily because they're socialists or they like socialism and that would be like a nice thing for socialists to to to hear, but it is a more broader sense of like political dispossession.
this understanding that, you know, that there is a uh that there is a a stratified elite, that um in order to gain gain access to that elite, to have an effect on politics, to touch politics, as my my philosopher friend Vlad Vlad Vexer says, is is is to go through an elite institution, to go through an Ivy League, to get a degree, um to like to to to learn to talk a certain way, and you have to live in certain places. because you have to live in New York City or LA or San Francisco um um or or Washington DC and that like absent sort of like you know you know these sort of crossing these milestones which are that that seem impassible for for most Americans today in in this sort of like general sense of the collapse of social mobility. You've gotten a lot of people, some people who vote for Trump knowing who he is and actually hope he burns the whole system down, hoping that from the ashes that that will rise some some reemergence of their agency. And in that sense, it's quite interesting that, you know, Trump and his people attack everybody, but they don't really attack Bernie Sanders that much. Uh, really kind of just left uh alone out there.
Um, cool. Oh, it's been almost an hour and I know you have another talk in half an hour, so I should give you a little moment to Yeah, I got I'm like I I got all these people people are inviting all people's inviting me on their podcast all of a sudden. It's it's kind of it's a lot, but you know, I I Yeah, I enjoy talking to it. Happy to happy to do this anytime. Um these are these are crazy times and there's always lots of stuff to talk about. And once again, man, I think we need our own version of Pirate Wire or Yeah. I mean, well, we'll keep talking.
We'll keep talking. I I've just been so busy and yeah, I'm not I'm not ghosting you, my friend. I I promise you that. You heard it here. I'm gonna uh I I I I think I think we uh I'm I'm I'm open-minded. It's all we can be in this in this crazy All right, everybody. Have a great day. Great to chat chat soon. Thanks for everybody for listening. Made about 250 people on which is great. So, we'll do this again soon. Thanks, Daniel. Chowo.
Automatic transcript, lightly edited for readability. Originally published on the Liminal News channel.