Ashanti Kunene, a South African storyteller and strategist who serves as executive director of The Elevator, the consciousness think tank Pinchbeck works with, discusses her upbringing and her reading of the present crisis as an initiation. Born into South Africa's born-free generation shortly after Nelson Mandela's release, she describes attending white schools and living in white suburbia while her mother worked as the country's first Black woman airport manager. She talks about losing her father to suicide when she was fourteen, and interprets it through masculinity, entitlement and the absence of any vocabulary for mental illness in Black South African families, where depression registered only as laziness. The conversation later moves to the divine feminine, ecological damage and an essay by Paul Kingsnorth they agree to take up in a following session.
Guest: Ashanti Kunene
In brief
- Kunene identifies with South Africa's born-free generation and describes a relatively privileged post-apartheid childhood in white schools and suburbs.
- She attributes her father's suicide in part to a model of masculinity that expected the benefits of patriarchy without accepting its responsibilities.
- Kunene says Black South African families lacked any language for mental health, so her father's chronic depression was read as laziness rather than illness.
- She describes mental health care as culturally coded in South Africa as something only white people can afford, in money and in time.
- Kunene argues that the present global crisis is a correction underway as the divine feminine reasserts itself after generations of extraction and disrespect toward the earth.
- She and Pinchbeck agree to continue in later sessions, including on his experiences with indigenous peoples and on a Paul Kingsnorth essay he considers worth reading now.
Full text
hey everybody uh today I am here with Ashante Kuni who's working with me on the elevator she's our executive director and you're in South Africa in Cape Town I understand yes sir hello greetings welcome and these are some of your paintings behind you in the background yeah some of my paintings yeah colorful life my out of my frame of reference so um so yeah well maybe uh just to get started you want to tell us a bit about yourself and um you know your background and then what attracted you to this project of you know quote unquote elevating Global Consciousness whatever that means uh there's so many questions in that question fair enough fair enough let's start with just tell us a little bit about your background like yeah so I mean I was born off a few days after Nelson Mandela was released from prison in 1919 so I'm part of the so-called born-free Generation Um my mommy was the first black female Airport Manager in the country so I grew up I suppose relatively privileged and what that me meant was I attended white schools I lived in white Suburbia we spoke English growing up um and I suppose like the townships were when I would go visit grandparents right so growing up I was told that I'm amazing I'm wonderful I'm intelligent the sky is not even a limit you can be and become all that your heart desires right and so in terms of my worldview and how I see myself in the world like life is this incredible Adventure you know you give what you take and you take what you give and so the creation and the curation of my experiences is something that I completely own um and I suppose in contrasts in cont trust to that I I lost my dad to suicide when I was 14 and so answering the spiritual aspect what has made me interested in elevating Consciousness so what have you that experience obviously meant that my father could not conquer life but life conquered him and so it's part of the work that I do um and part of my own practice is that I will not be conquered by life I'm here to conquer life and have an adventure and so as part of the impetus you know in terms of you have the free will to choose the kind of life experience you want to have um and I and I suppose that also refers to that uh what is it a Buddhist principle of like non-attachment like irrespective of the context I'm still going to find find ways to be at peace and remember God and remember that I'm loved and all those things so big roundabout high level way your question and was your father I think you said he was involved with politics in South Africa or what was his kind of uh what was his involvement no my father was a my father was a traffic officer was a traffic officer he also grew up he grew up fairly privileged during a parate because they used to sell coal his family used to sell coal before we got electricity so thing in the township like everybody's buying coal from you so he didn't quite um his father said to him that we have a business to run um so school is secondary without thinking that you know one day people will switch over to electricity not necessarily coal um and so by the time he met my mom he was a fully grown man and my mom had gone to University and like you know upward mobility and all these things so it's also the importance of Education what education does in terms of your capacity to take advantage of opportunities later on in life you know so um the uh the you know the psychologist part of me now wants to ask you a little bit more about what happened with your father but we don't you know that's only if you want to go there we can also leave that aside let's go baby no problem I have no problem what what what what happened why did he uh why did why did he kill himself H you know I think I think now that I'm like older I think it's this question of masculinity and patriarchy and the expectations of what it means to be a man and how male egos are crafted and cultivated you're socialized into this idea of being an alpha but but then you know you know I suppose being a black man also from the hood you you're not necessarily you don't have the structures or the support systems to equip you to be able to be you know what you need to be but at the same time it's a question of like choice right my mom and my father grew up at the same time Mom chose to go to school and make something of herself or as my dad I suppose because of his context didn't choose to go to school and there was a sense of entitlement to life life owes me something right and together in tandem with the inability to actually I suppose not necessarily work hard but like put in the work you can't just pray you have to pray and work you have to pray and do you know the doing goes with the manifesting and the hoping and the what have you and so my dad he my mom was the bread winner but my father I think how I've come to understand it was that he fully expected the benefits of patriarchy without taking any of its responsibilities and that had you know consequences on how people engage with you and then you put you couple that I suppose you couple the constraints of capitalism as a whole black person in South Africa um with the fact that mental health is not is not discussed in the Black Culture mental health is something only white people can afford so and afford being the critical verbage there meaning you have the money to be able to sit down and sleep all day you know and my dad was actually depressed like so part of it is that as a black man you sleeping 12 13 15 hours of a day while your wife is out at work you're a lazy black man no one's saying oh there's something off here you know yeah so I remember I remember the first therapy session we had after my father's suicide the therapist asked my mom but how can you be surprised that he shot himself he clearly was chronically depressed of what you've told me and what was so powerful about that is that this woman clearly had the language and the tools and the capacity to understand mental health and and what the signs were for you know mental disease whereas black families generally just do not we did not have the language he was sleeping all day sleep means laziness what are you doing there's money to be made there's Bill to be children have to be raised what's what's happening you know and so not having the language for mental health for all of those other aspects or even for men to not be whatever the archetype is that you have to be a provider protector and if you're not this you're worthless you know it's the saying broke man is like a broken hand so go ahead go ahead I was gonna ask you a little bit about because I I I mean when we're working together you often complain about English and you want to go back into Zulu so I assume that you grew up with that language first and sort of sort of inculturated into that a little bit I'm just C I don't know that much about you know Zulu culture kind of kind of ideas I mean look I grew up in the new South Africa you know and my mom wanted the best for us and what that meant was you need to speak English like the white people you need to speak English better than them because then you can go to their schools and succeed and be able to move in that space so the code switching is important and I suppose has bearing on your capacity to even be a token you know being a token black means like you you you sound correct so that was the first thing um and then the second piece is that you know at the time it was Democratic South Africa upward Mobility blacks could like you know move up classes so there was a real westernization I suppose that occurred in my um upbringing and like Lang The Importance of Being a Zulu girl in South Africa speaking her home language came to the FL when I went to boarding school in guazu we have a province called after the Zulus because we are the largest tribe we are the warrior tribe which cool um and so yeah and I found myself you know unable unable to properly connect with fellow black kids because I don't quite speak vernacular and I'm not white so my English doesn't get me into the white friendship uh group you know so like I grew up in this like in between Lial space not quite white enough not quite black enough so what that meant is I had to learn how to be adaptable and get along with all sorts of different types of people because I don't have a set crew you know this group thing group mentality once you're in a club that's it that becomes your identity I'm still looking for my club yeah so like identity be I had one here and there I had one for a while but I seem that one so yeah and so what that that obviously that means that you learn how to be self sufficient in and of oneself and you don't seek validation from the group which is contrary to how most I suppose in my experience most people are you know people want to be care care to be accepted by the group we all want to be but caring to be is a different conversation you know and um so I remember you telling me about going to college and having a very annoying confrontation with Aristotle um so what happened with Aristotle why moment for you why did this tickle you no because I'm in I was in a postgraduate international relations Theory class we're learning about Aristotle and politics no and it is the head of the political science department taking this class and he is this is in South Africa or at stalos University St University in South Africa and salabas University by the by is the systemic and spiritual birthplace of a about date as a system as a Consciousness uh thing because nine out of the 12 uh Prime Ministers studied there crafted their ideas and thoughts and all of that stuff there anyway um we're in class we're learning now and it's time to learn about Aristotle and this professor had the courage this is also uh mind you in the second year of the uh student movement that took place in 2015 you had a movement called fees Must Fall that took place across the country at different universities because born frees have come of age and now they're asking about freedom and why you know why is education still um bed by my economic access so the political climate on campus around who gets to be human what is freedom all these things was like quite hot at the time we were having this class right but this professor thought it a good idea to teach us Aristotle as if Aristotle is the gospel of what it means to be a human and this idea of rationality right like I don't mind like I was explaining to you I don't mind engaging with you know different thinkers and different ways of understanding the world and others but don't talk to me as if that is the gospel truth and anything else is incorrect or illegitimate um knowledge or understanding right so the basic Crux of that was you are a human a rational animal is a human and rationality is a sole Preserve of white men because all people of color are natural slaves and all women or damaged beings I will never forget reading the sentence I need to actually find the actual reference for you but that thing is seared in my brain all people of color are natural slaves all women are damaged beings and so therefore rationality is outside our capacity and I remember putting up my hand to ask my professor but Prof here I am a whole woman of color in a class called IR Theory okay like if I'm not using my logical rational brain what am I doing um does my presence in this class not negate what you're saying to me about Aristotle and for the life of him shame he couldn't W he couldn't he shut down it became a matter of I am now being disrespectful in his class you know and for me that was an interesting something to see a whole tenur Professor not find the capacity to engage with you know I suppose a challenge of the work that he knows well um so yeah everything within context you know like don't shut your brain off to learning about things and reading but like everything with a pinch of salt of course so yeah I've been curious like so you went to University international relations Is that what you were studying or was that your your that's then kind what was your professional kind of like uh what was your sense of like goal Mission then what was kind of your professional path you know that that you kind of took um she kind of that that direction yeah so I studied international relations because I remember I don't know you know when you're choosing subjects or what have you and you get all these different uh guest speakers come speak to you we had a guy from the UN come chat to us about why international relations was pretty cool um you know and you get a travel International you get a blue passport like just power dealing with delegates all sorts of things and that intrigued me how states can behave as individuals as people how a state can be a person essentially and have this kind of power on the global stage and he who rules the frame um essentially sets the terms and the pace of the game um so I I went I went to the UN after that I did a lot of work around especially the switch from Millennium sustain Millennium development goals sustainable development goals I did a lot of Youth consultations and you know traveling for that and I essentially understood that the UN is the closest thing we have to a global government but it is essentially you know a structure that keeps the status quo in place I I remember I was in New York we were at a global youth Summit and the I forgot I forgot what his name now but the guy who was in charge of the youth Global youth Network he said to a room filled with 500 kids from all over the world best of the best of the best from their universities he said to us you will never work for the UN but you can work with us and I remember thinking no what do you mean I'll will never work for the UN so that means that once you're in a position at the UN you're there for it's like a golden cage you're there forever so I will never find myself within the actual structure but I'll find myself Affiliated and I found that strange and thus begun my quest on like you know follow the power Snips and the money why is that things are not feeling like they're supposed to be okay and again that thing about you know being led by intuition which is such a hard thing to do in the world that requires you to have a plan and like be rational but where I would not be where I am today had I not followed the fire in my belly that oh I actually have to talk to people I actually have to engage in tough stuff you know uncomfortable things and help people think through what does it mean for you to be a racist or a bigest or like all of these things like they are you know karmic and spiritual consequences for everything every action has a consequence every choice has a consequence and life is a series of choices whether you want to acknowledge that you've made those choices or not you know and so what does it look like for those who fancy themselves leaders those who fancy themselves PE someone to follow examples to follow how in alignment are you um I suppose with that calling and um yeah then you know I went into Tech I was working as a social insights analyst when Trump became president and this company called it six months before everybody cot on that hey given how people are talking online Trump you were about to see Donald Trump become president and we're about to see brexit and that then showed me the power of tech technology and Story the capacity to tell stories and the capacity to control the tech that disseminate stories means you get to set the the frames of what people are discussing and how whether it be politics money what have you you know and Trump coming into power was absolute validation of their methodology and that's when I understood that oh you can't this is not something we can shun as a tool of the elites to oppress us we actually need to get with the program and then how to use a tech so um yeah I'm I'm going that led that L that led you ultimately to the culture hack project precisely precisely because culture hack yeah yeah because CHL they're they're they're offering essenti I mean they came they were here in South Africa and they did what what actually since most people won't know what what is the culture hack project what what what what appealed to you about it uh what what appeal about it yeah so culture hack Labs have like a Unique Systems change methodology it's a narrative Leed systems change methodology uh so the essential premise is to say that the stories we tell ourselves shape how we behave in the world and if we can change the stories we'll change the behavior shifting Behavior be stories is the wrong way around because stories capture what we think is true what we believe to be right and wrong who we think we are in relation to to others and that is the lens through which and the prison through which we you know go out into the world so that was curious to me and when they came how I first found out about them they had hosted a narrative hack during fma's fall that student movement I was telling you about and um they showed so what they did you had like an official role in that in that student movement or you were a position in or kind of like just part of it no I mean I was an unofficial student lead at stal so I I have a a TED Talk where I explain explain this but I that's also the other thing that we can go off about like leadership for me I fundamentally believe is not something you choose you have to be CH for leadership if you choose to be a leader you need there's something about power that we need to check especially in our context right so leadership was something I I chose and it was it took me it took me a while to accept that mine is a voice voice that people listen to whether I like it or not and so that's why I have to speak sense every time I I I talk um but anyways CHL they basically in a in a nutshell Cambridge analytica but for social justice activists if you're trying to you know change the world change stories reframe things get us to think better about the planet Etc list is how we can use social media and Tech and like intervene and hack existing narratives that I found am amazing for my brain because the technology the analyst and me and the Storyteller all came together and the social justice uh piece right elevating Consciousness elevating awareness making people understand that to be kind is better than to be mean you know um right although although people I mean um as you're talking about all this stuff I'm reflecting on the current moment in America uh which we've talked about quite a bit uh which I'm writing about quite a bit also I mean we're talking just I think seven or eight days seven days before Trump's inauguration inur um and um yeah personally I have a lot of trepidation about what's coming um because yeah we' you know you know America sort of written him a uh a blank check to do what he wants with the Republican Congress and Supreme Court and so on and um and also obviously the new alliance with the tech billionaires who've all toggled to the right wing and are manipulating their platforms to um kind of a in a bet you know this kind of like takeover so uh yeah I want to get into that a little bit um because yeah I mean I guess what we're seeing right now I mean it's nice that culture hack Labs was doing their thing I know you maybe also had some some issues with them then you backed out of a little but um it feels in general at a time where like you know progressivism uh you know liberalism leftism let's say you know is getting completely like rolled uh back uh and um kind of um dominant um ideological project is really like sweeping through the world in a way that I find very frightening because of the power of digital surveillance artificial intelligence uh these new tools um you know that um you know let's say 20 years ago or something there was a sense that you know technology and capitalism were working together to lead to kind of like uh you know liberal democracy as kind of like the future you know Obama was sort of believed that you know China was you know if we just kept giving them you know Tech and gave them great Market you know they they would eventually move towards liberalism you know and yeah what we've seen is actually that uh the the these these tools that everyone were so hopeful about now seem seem to be um supporting you know kind of more of a movement towards uh despotism you know right-wing populism and from there it actually could you know get way way worse um in in certain respects um so I want to get into that with you but before we get into that and unless you have like a quick comment yeah I'm curious so then you know I reached out to you uh and you busted me on this rightfully when we get when when when you were on my seminar the future of Consciousness I was like I was looking for you know brilliant you know black women women black people to be part of this seminar and I and I discovered you and your Ted Talk and I was very happy when you spoke I felt an immediate like resonance kinship with you and loved your your voice kind of like humility and so on so that kind of led us to this collaboration uh R started this um kind of nent thinktank incubator project with the tarell duat from Norway who runs you know the Catapult fund and future Fest several years ago and um yeah I'm kind of curious from your perspective what what was it about U this idea of the elevator uh that uh inspired and excited you and made you want to like you know th throw your hat in the ring here you know way yeah I mean like like like I had shared with you initially one was your paper I remember just thinking hey what what white scientific language to talk about U well just to remind people the paper was called the idealism option and one one of the you know main issues or ideas that really Fascinate with with me is that we've sort of reached the end of the reductive materialist or physicalist Paradigm or ontology and a a more reasonable logical way of looking at the nature of reality is um what's called ministic IDE or analytic idealism which includes philosophers like brto castrop and neuroscientists like Donald Hoffman are big promoters of it and yeah so the paper was trying to show why you know in short form why that is actually a more coherent way of understanding the nature of reality that actually Consciousness is maybe the foundational layer of reality and um the physical Universe you know the everything you know physical Evolution sort of like extends from this ground of Consciousness um or this field let's say of Consciousness uh rather than being Consciousness emerging kind of accidentally from physical and biological evolution and yeah so you you read that and you Associated that with Ubuntu maybe you could tell me a little bit about Ubuntu I'm still trying to get my my I mean I understand the concept but if there's you know anything you want to share so the so the saying is so the direct translation which also doesn't quite capture the essence of what that phrase is is a person is a person because of other people you can only call yourself a person if you recognize a personhood in others Ubuntu means I recognize the life in you which is what I have in me so therefore we are one and the same and I will then treat you as an extension of me right things wherever you find life you find yourself and so therefore treat as such um assuming you treat yourself with love and kindness and care and all of these things you know some people treat themselves badly but Ubuntu is that essence you say that we are all interconnected um and we're inter we're connected and unified by this idea of spiritu the greatest of the great and spirit is what I suppose Quantum science has found to be Consciousness as the base of all things that energy right and so reading the paper was just like you know I suppose a a recognition that Western science and Western Civilization have come full circle to an understanding that we've known since the beginning you know so it is really like a return to original understanding of our interconnectivity and then the responsibility of what that inter interdependence entails right because if we're connected and we are one I have a responsibility to treat you well I cannot treat myself well and mistreat you then I'm disrespecting the God and the life in you right and I think speaking about like what's happening in America and you know all the movements I do feel at a deeply spiritual karmic level that things are coming to aead we have to now make a choice how do we want to be on the earth no mother nature is not playing along with us Los Angeles was on fire in the middle of winter it's still on fire it's still still on fire but like apocalyptic type images that you're seeing and so I do feel that we're at a a Crossroads a turning point or a point where we need to make a decision do we want to continue to live and engage with each other the way we have been in this really extractive um transactional manner where I only care for you if there's something you've got to give me otherwise I've got no business or time or care or love or anything for you can we shift from economic systems that say it is more profitable to throw away food than to feed the Homeless can we deal with the issue of homelessness as opposed to you know hoarding and so one of one of my friends like to say we don't have a resource problem we have an imagination problem we have more than enough of everything for everybody it's how we're using that more than enough right um yeah did I answer question yeah yeah I want to go back though I mean um so the concept of Ubuntu as you as you expressed it sounds very similar to me to the Mayan greeting inesh which means I am another yourself um so I mean um the push back that I often get because I've written a lot about different indigenous uh cultures I've actually been very grateful to have had the experience of visiting um like the kogi in Colombia and the Hopi in Arizona very briefly and the sequa in Ecuador and so on um um as well as sorry am I allowed to ask you questions as well oh yeah you can experiences well they were really very beautiful experiences and um I I I always really feel that it's important for people I mean to you know understand to you know to go and have those direct encounters because um yeah particularly in this new like uh neore reactionary movement um there's um almost like an angry rejection of what's seen as the romanticization uh of indigenous cultures that they believe has taken place over the last you know half century or something um and they're not you know entirely wrong about that in some ways I mean I mean I think there has been a bit of a um romanticization you know and so like you know for instance we see like you know the the IAS Scarrow who an indigenous cultures was often a very ambiguous figure and was sort of like a uh you know Lo Warrior on the psychic planes who as much as they could heal or use their Vision to find like a food source for the tribe you know they might also enjoy shooting like you know poison darts on the astral plane at at their various you know perceived enemies and so on so you know there is you know the Western uh mindset is very tends to be very dualistic uh and you know sort of polarizes between like you know God and Satan good and evil you know healer and you know and villain or whatever so there was a way to kind of like see the sort of you know the the sort of Karo the shaman you know as like purely good uh and that's actually now kind of like I think you know broken up on on the on the reality of how of how complex and intricate you know things actually are so yeah in the same way like um you know Zulu culture may have this beautiful idea of Ubuntu uh you know just as the Mayans had this beautiful idea of inesh uh but the Mayans also you know had practices that we traditionally don't approve of like human sacrifice and so on um although even there it's kind of more complicated because there's some indication if you go to like chichin that actually it was the the winning the the the captain of the winning ball team who was the one who was extremely happy to be sacrificed because that was going to you know kind of project his soul into the Heavenly worlds or something like that uh but anyway yeah so I'm just kind of curious like in since I don't know anything to be honest about you know Zulu Society you know zul Zulu indigenous culture do you feel that these a concept like Ubuntu was something that was you know well lived and expressed or you know was it in any situation like a human situation of complexity and there was violence there was there was war maybe even you know negative things and then in some cases there was this this beauty and and this Consciousness I mean I mean I think that's I think that applies for all things right like that that Duality exists but not in opposition to each other that's why balance is important you know you have night and day light and Shadow like there is the darkness and the you know the hate and the love that exists within and auntu can only be auntu when practice otherwise it's just an ideal right and so even in the attempts to practice Ubuntu in my country for example if you take the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that took place in 94 96 after when we got freedom there are critiques as to how that TRC uh happened it you know it buried some stories it like preserved trauma for other people but on the other hand we're celebrated around the world as a human rights example to follow because it's centered around this idea of Ubuntu recognizing the humanity in others right it's it it's a it's a heart posture a Consciousness posture it is this is how I begin my day and engage with others before I engage right and it really is such a profound shift from like this individual dog eat dogs there some game thing that you know supports and props up a SP of the poly crisis and capitalism Etc is that yall are not my competition you're my collaborators we we are we are living in the end of days together do you understand like we don't have time to be fighting with each other bro like we actually need to find ways to relate in softer ways with each other love each other through our ugly as a society as a collective as families like we need to heal on so many different levels and so that's the other thing about I guess you know ideal Concepts or idealism is that it's not it's easier said than done like this isn't easy work to love people through they ugly to to be peaceful in the context of chaos to find Bliss when all you want to do is fall asleep and die it's not an easy thing to do you know my mom was always said doing the right thing in a world that rewards doing the wrong thing is the hardest thing to do so to find someone that is actually responsible responsible in the sense of doing you know the basics being kind empathetic engaging with love like not causing violence not accumulating to the expense of others like that's the other thing I guess for me at a spiritual level what I've come to understand in my life is a testament to that is that everything your heart desires God has already given to you the universe whatever you want to call it Buddha Allah whoever Jesus it's been promised to you all your heart's desires but it is the how you go about those desires that will determine the quality hence why you'll say there's that saying that you know rich people money doesn't buy happiness because rich people are so depressed why are you depressed when you have all the money in the world do you understand it's the way in which that money was accumulated or that success whatever it is that you were going about your business God doesn't deny you your desires what he does put put constraints around is the how because that's karma that's energy that's either multiplying love and light in the world or contributing to the chaos and darkness and so talking about wund as a practice love is a practice and I'm you know hoping this is what we're going to explore in our upcoming seminar is how do you ensure that your heart is in the correct posture to contribute to the love and light in the world every day IR regardless of what you're R is not all of us can renounce and go be Hermits in the mountain we all have talents that we've come here with blessed with that you must use because also when you are not walking in alignment with what you've come here to do and you're in a different space different career you're Restless you hate your job because you would rather be doing something else why what is that something else find it that's the reason why you came here reason why you came here I got I got a little bit stuck I I enjoyed your uh your your you're speechifying there you're sermonizing but I did I got a little stuck on the on the god moments I just want to go back to that for a second I mean um I I I I I sense that you have a yeah kind of a religious uh ethos maybe to some extent even drawn from Christianity I don't know I mean I I can express my own kind of like um I guess my my ethos begins with let's say the manistic idealism idea that Consciousness is the foundation but then um the idea that um you know kind of local cultures kind of ideologies almost like sculpt or or shape that like Source field in in different ways that um resonate with like a way of knowing a way of being um you know so I I I I sort of hesitate to use the word like you know God God with so much confidence as you just did so I'm just kind of curious like where does that come from in your own yeah I mean because I I mean I grew up Catholic L there GRE up in Catholic Church um so the big God the big dog that's that's how I refer to him Big Daddy um everybody got their own name for so this is where I'm at right now which is very different to where I grew up in terms of like the Catholic Church Etc but I what I recognize as God Allah Buddha whatever your name is for the infinite intelligence the great one the great life force I recognize Life Energy as that right the thing that animates you and make you makes you alive that breath what whatever you want to call it what that looks like in Us in plants and animals it's the it's the same thing it's the same Essence and that for me is the infinite intelligence of the universe also God also Krishna also what so that's the first thing and secondly I I respect and understand that as many and as diverse as we are on the planet there are multiple entry points into that higher Consciousness or that you know life force energy so I do not like judge people how they enter into as long it is via Spirit what I do judge is like the illegal entries and the escaping through the Psychedelic so maybe there like a Segway into the into the we'll get to that we'll get to that we don't that's something gonna become a major but by the way I'm also very glad that you mentioned the seminar that we're doing together which I think is going to be amazing and I'm really excited about it I believe we're calling it life as initiation elevator's first seminar I think that's a it's an interesting one for us to begin with as elevator because it is life is an initiation that goes back to what I was saying earlier about my father who was conquered by life and didn't conquer life that's what we've come here to do the challenges we've signed up for the hardest Spirit School in the entire universe that's why very you don't know there might there might be some tougher ones out there but this one is I promise you not this one this one is the hardest because this one you have to forget God to remember him everywhere else you don't forget where you come from here you actually go through go ahead go ahead no I was gonna say that um I'm also quite happy that you do have this kind of you know catholic christian Rel frame framing in there because yeah I mean I you know I have a many great dreams uh um elevator become uh but among them I would love to try to build a Bridge back to kind of traditional religious um you know people movements and so on and um I actually believe that you know the shift from manistic idealism from reductive scientism or or materialism is is the way to do that um and you know the problem what's that that's curious why do you want people to go back to traditional religions not that I want people to go back to traditional religions I think one of the reasons that you know secular humanism progressivism you know liberalism like the basically at the moment we're at a time where the enlightenment tradition is in Peril this whole idea that goes back to the 18th century that you know public reason is like a good thing and that if you reason from first principles you end end up with a society where humans are bound together by like laws and can make decisions together and and work with each other that's really being ripped out by its roots right now by this sort of movement towards IR rationality um which we're seeing in the rise of kind of like right-wing demagogues who are often like anti vaccines anti-science um you know you know I mean it's very complicated for me because I I also Embrace a lot of mysticism and esotericism and you know like there I yesterday I wrote about a couple of essays from the Atlantic and one of them is about this movement called the new apostolistic AP how do you say it apostolistic apoc no aptic no hell hold on one sec oh that's hilarious something something the New Apostolic Reformation okay Apostolic Reformation Apostolic Reformation so this is a movement that um Elon Musk and Donald Trump have been collaborating with or working with that is a very extreme form of Christianity that doesn't want democracy that wants to go back to you know kind of um what they see a as a god focused you know family country you know and so on model of of of life you know it's there's there so it's like there's a way that these fundamentalist movements are actually not traditional movements they're actually kind of postmodern configurations in a way so this is one of these sort of postmodern and then but then but then the but then these movements become more fanatical than traditional movements like like the Taliban so I I would say this this New Apostolic reform is a little bit like the American Taliban but it's like 30% of Christians in the US are now embedded into this which is really tens of millions of people apparently and um they're like the shock troops for this uh right-wing takeover of American society um so I so I think that the a problem with liberalism and secular humanism you know not that certain Democratic politicians don't also talk about God and Christianity but you never quite believe them in a way but the the underlying ethos is more sort of scientific rational somewhat you know cynical kind of ideology that's taken us as far as we can go a a as as a human Collective uh and and it's actually makes it impossible for people who are trapped in that structure they always have a kind of contempt or condescension towards people who have an animistic belief or religious belief they can't really meet those people where they are with full you know kind of empathic understanding and connection but I think once you anchor manistic idealism and you recognize that yeah that Consciousness is the foundational reality there are these Realms of the psyche you know there are you know the that Consciousness whether you call it God or Source field or whatever you know you know is this power in the world and then you can even begin to think about you know a way to sort of articulate the importance of somebody like Jesus maybe as an Incarnation you know or an element of this Divine expression I me I really like um Carl Young's ESS say God's answer to job U for me was like the most profound way of understanding you know Jesus as a sort of psychological um you know event in you know sort of necessary event let's say in human history um so yes you know my my problem is that I'm always coming from this like too intellectual place where I do all the reading and all the work but then it's like how do you get these ideas you know moving into culture but ideas are very important and and you know so it's like you never know when like a little shiver of an idea is going to be like the trim tab that like moves around a whole civilizational ship and I've had you know some experience with that personally because my first book breaking open the head uh which came out in 2002 was a reconsideration of psychedelic Shamanism and the Visionary experience and you know it didn't you know maybe it sold like 50,000 copies or something but but I I have a feeling that that book really began to shift the perception in the modern Western psyche about the value of Transcendence Visionary experience uh Visionary plants and so on and sort of and sort of helped instigate this psychedelic movement which now is like a big industry with Bill companies that have billions of dollars and in market cap and you know therapy I mean you know kind of like retreat centers all around the world um but then we can also get into as you mentioned earlier some of the problems that are that are now emerging around what's happening which are and here once again the the the the the reductive materialis M or or the the cynical atheism or whatever is is an obstruction because people who are trapped in that ideology you know they can only see like oh it's like you know there's mental health evidence if you give people psilocybin it maybe is good for obsessive compulsive disorder or MDMA can treat postraumatic stress disorder and a lot of that is really wonderful and important but um there there may also be more subtle kind of psychospiritual Dimensions to uh the sort of excess use of visionary plants and chemicals that have that have negative social consequences or individual consequences that we don't even really have in our society the language to understand whereas indigenous cultures might have understood it as like you know Spirit possession or um uh so so you know part of what I've been doing recently is trying to is trying to find uh different ways to yeah explore anchor that uh what one useful um kind of structure what's that yeah two things come up for me so one on the the New Apostolic reform capturing what you say 30% of the 30% yeah so okay stick with me firstly we are going through collectively a Dark Knight of the Soul everybody's got a spiritual there's a spiritual moral crisis ongoing n that's the first we agree on that yes okay the second thing Christians I'm going to say that's a very gener general statement I'm going to make but broadly you don't read your Bible you go to church on Sunday to get someone else to tell you about your relationship with God so we've on the large part outsourced the the leg work the spiritual leg work of getting to know God which as a consequence means that you do not develop the discernment to know who is leading you astray or who is leading you closer to God so my immediate response to that in terms of like a solution to that was like oh you know not to Shay read your Bible check check your inner voice if what you're hearing is correct is it because that's what's that um man's name to the rosmus lecture he said God will not be Paul kingt Paul kingt amazing amazing amazing Erasmus 2024 lecture he he articulated it so clearly as as he said that God will not be mocked n so all your plans whatever it is that you think you're doing um there will always be spiritual consequences for the choices and the actions whether or not you understand how the law works you know an example would be you know your you fall off the balcony and then you complain that no I didn't know about gravity gravity doesn't care gravity is just there this is how it works you need to get to know the rules and behave accordingly and so I think in the spiritual realm there are also certain things that we need to follow I do not you know claim to know what they are but for me and my spirit and the inner work that I've done I know what keeps me in line and in tune with you know that thing that I call um God so the py psychedelic piece because I the first time I understood how widely used psychedelics were was at University but then also going to boomfest I think it was 2022 something largest Trans festable in the world free I've been there many I've been there many times I used to speak there every time yeah so the Psychedelic that was a deep culture culture and worldview shock for me you know and so I think part of the part of the crumbling of Western Civilization is attendant with the spiritual crisis and because you don't know God and you're not cultivating personal relationships you're trying to find quick fixes for that lack of internal sustenance or light or relation that you're meant to have and cultivate right and so my main question when I did the talk was what it what is it about your conscious State your waking State your current state of spirit that you cannot stand that you need to go and have aasa trips and aboga trips and do all sorts of kinds of psychedelics like the overuse of them it's one thing to be going through a dieta you're going to do the plant once because you want to experience it it's another thing if you're using aasa as a crutch and you're doing that every other two weeks it's clearly helping you deal with something that you're not dealing with on your own and part of that part of what I understand I suppose the Crocs of the Bible to say at every Point God is trying to tell you not to worry that he's got you don't don't worry about tomorrow don't worry about your daily bread like I love like you are sustained in all ways you know and so that is easier said I suppose than done what does it mean to live as if God has me every day what does it mean to walk what Paul Kings was talking about walk as if I don't have to worry about tomorrow or R what does that mean practically when you're constrained by capitalism and white supremacy patriarchy and all these things you know it's a hard path to know God hence why it's easy to Outsource it to other spiritual gurus that can lead you astray very nicely you know so well I mean you know from my own perspective like um I just you know felt like um I you know my assumption cuz was the Assumption of everybody around me was uh you know nihilism that essentially you know there's no possible existence of a soul or Spirit Beyond this physical vehicle and so therefore that was my the first element of my quest was to you know either accept that that was the case or um have what F felt like direct phenomenological and evidence-based knowledge that there was more and then once I discovered that there was more then I wanted to know more about the mo you know please oh you know what happened to me in my brain as you said that I wanted to know about I wanted to know more about the mo that's the Bliss and pleasure of God for me God Universe once you've tasted that oh just it's all in it's awful in the original sense all inspiring God was like you have you you can do nothing but give thanks for the sunset and the full moon like you know no more but the more yes continue that's exciting I mean you know and as William Blake wrote I think the the fool uh you know must persist in his fly until he becomes wise you know so um you know I mean I I went I went through a number of uh you know I went pretty far in in in my Folly in different directions and you know I think finally um yeah I had to go through a process of like recalibration and recovery but um I don't know if I would have you know in a way it's all part of the process you know of the human human process that's that's curious for me talk to me about the recalibration right because I think that's also that's that was also the other thing if I'm going to be you know in the spirit of open honest conversations and having tough conversations so one it was the paper and two was you asking right um and being upfront about who it is that is asking me to come and join and for me what occurred because you you also you also found me or met me at a time where I'm like you know finally accepting the calling and the anointing over my life I'm accepting that I'm meant to be this I suppose person that attempts to show what does it look like to walk with love what does it look like to practice that thing daily and what does it look like to hold people with love through their ugly right through their ugly through their mess through all the things because not nobody is perfect all the time and this thing about life is that growth and change is the only consistency it's the only thing that's conent in the world it's the change you know um yeah and so I was I was I I I took that as a not just a sign but like a call to action from Spirit that oh isn't it you've been going going around talking that you're this kind of girl come show us now come show us what that means in terms of like practically engaging with people and others and the storytelling and so yeah when I said to you that our ancestors liked each other Daniel I did mean it you know I ancestors like each other a lot and and I think again I can't remember if I said this but it relates to the heart posture is your heart posture in the correct Place everything else will fall into line but if your heart posture is in the correct place in the Divine place in the loving place and the light place we can do a lot of things you know yeah well I'm super excited to be uh on this uh you know exploratory engagement adventure with you I think it'll go it will go some interesting places and we have a lot of ideas from this point uh around what we would love the you know elevator to do uh everything from you know membership organization to local groups to um seminars to you know inperson conferences and yeah we'll just take it step by step and see I mean for me a very interesting piece of the puzzle is research and and kind of like Discovery in that sense so right now we're we're working on a um kind of the the the sort of uh first draft or kind of pro proposal stage of a uh a piece on kind of AI and Consciousness um that's already you know I'm already going down really deep big rabbit hole I'm sure yeah yeah I SP I spend my weekend with Michelle fuko's the order of things and the archaeology knowledge and you know kind of beginning to think about um how kind of like you know AI seems to be so um synchronized with all these other processes happening you know with the ecological crisis with the meaning crisis uh with the geopolitical uh crisis that we're entering um it feels like and Fuko in that book talked about um epistemes so he talked about he made a distinction between like the classical episte or the Renaissance episte which was basically you know more of a logic based on analogy and symbol then the efforts to you know classify everything and create these sort of hierarchical models in the classical world then the modern world which sort of centered human subjectivity and the sort of Frailty and the sort of limits of human reason and you know human Humanity became the the subject and object of of inquiry and exploration and and now with AI uh it feels like we're we're transitioning into something else where you know human knowledge is no longer the the the sort of limit like now we're embedded in these larger networks that are able to cognize and um interpret and analyze you know much faster and more effectively than we are and uh do it in ways that we may not even completely understand using like you know pattern and and principles and so on that are a little beyond our cognitive range so um so yeah so for me it's a very exciting uh exploration and uh I'm also you know very intrigued because yeah I don't think that I have much access to many people from like the African world and how they are thinking about what's happening and and you know exploring you know this type of material these types of Concepts so I'm I'm also excited to to to see what you you can bring in from from yeah from from that you know and you mentioned a few thinkers that you thought were interesting maybe in this discussion you know yeah I don't know like the future I me I suppose in closing the future is very interesting we're alive but for me I feel like we're alive like you know when they first discovered how to use fire this is what AI is for me right now we're at a turning point we've discovered a new thing and really it's not the tool it's not the fire it's not the sword it's not the AI it's the how we use the thing going back to the point I was saying earlier you can do whatever you on but how you do that thing is where the Crux is is the important thing you know um and to like quote a friend of M is just like we're at a point where you actually can't fight this thing it's like trying to fight air this is the directions the world is going so trying to figure out where we can you know I suppose intervene and remind people remind people that the essence of it everything comes from Earth everything comes from other Earth want to talk about a psychedelic experience my one and only last ever anything N I don't even know if that counts but they gave me San Pedro how it was explained to me was that if aaya is the king daddy San Pedro is the young prince of the of the plant and so we took this as a tea and then went you know for a walk in the forest in Costa Rica to go talk to the mother tree and asked the mother tree to speak to us and so part of the message I got anyway was is that you know all comes from my womb everything all of you and you've spent the last however many centuries disrespecting my womb the father God is not who you should fear because he's the one who's allowed you to misbehave within me if I awake now all of you are going to suffer so get it together before I awake for this time that's what the God has told me that's what the mother told me he like never mind father God you should fear the mother mother earth is tired of us she's she's we are this close we need to get it together spirit in terms of our reverence and respect from him because even this Tech whatever materials it all comes from the earth and we've now created things and materials that cannot return organically back to talking about the Plastics and the whatever what have you we're hurting her we've pillaged her we've lost all respect for her and the main I remember the main thing was like how dare I reawaken a reawaken at a time where everyone has forgotten have have have forgotten to have reverence for the divine feminine everything comes from me um and the men are disabusing themselves of the powers of life that was never Theirs to wield in the first place and then the women you're crying that the men don't know how to wield power they were never meant for that in the first place so there's a correction that has to occur that is occurring and that's why you're feeling it like the existential crisis and everything everything is going we need to get it together quickly cuz Mother Nature we're here right here with him that was beautifully stated and yeah I can't really disagree with that I mean yeah some people talk about it as like the K Yuga you know calii being like sort of destructive um expression of the kind of goddess archetype and so on uh I think that's a great um you know kind of like place to pause and um yeah I think we we'll put this uh first uh discussion out into the ether we'll see what kind of responses we get and then we'll do another one in in a week or two and um you know you I you I sort of bookmarked because you'd asked me about my experiences with the indigenous people and I didn't really answer them I'll come back to that uh next time and maybe also we'll talk a little bit more about that Paul Kings North essay uh I had many many thoughts about and you definitely think it's a very valuable text for people to look at at this point in time amazing Daniel thank you so much for your time this was juicy enjoyed it much yeah talk soon thank you thank you
Automatic transcript, lightly edited for readability. Originally published on the Liminal News channel.