Pinchbeck hosts a live conversation with Ari Kuschnir, the filmmaker behind widely circulated AI-generated satirical videos of political figures, and Schuyler Brown, ahead of a course the three are teaching on producing short, socially and spiritually conscious AI videos. Kuschnir describes his Trump ayahuasca piece as a response to August 2024, made in the first week Grok's image tools were available, and contrasts it with the darker MAGA Ballroom 2028 video made a year later. He floats a Christmas Carol treatment with Jeffrey Epstein as Jacob Marley and invites viewers to suggest the ghosts. Pinchbeck raises his own initial reservation, echoed in his comments section, that humanizing portrayals could numb audiences, and recounts a discussion at the Museum of the Moving Image about Sora and fabricated memories. Brown closes with a heart-centered visualization practice.
Guest: Ari Kuschnir and Schuyler Brown
In brief
- Kuschnir and Brown frame their work as feeding the imaginal realm with counter-visions, against both the propagandistic uses of AI by governments and the dystopian futures produced by Hollywood.
- Kuschnir argues that each of his pieces registers a specific moment, so that the comparatively playful Trump ayahuasca video belongs to August 2024 and would not be made now.
- Pinchbeck says he initially worried the videos could soften public perception of figures like Trump and Musk by suggesting a capacity for empathy, but concluded it is worth working with those archetypes to offer a different idea.
- A questioner at Kuschnir's Museum of the Moving Image presentation raised the concern that Sora-generated scenes can settle into memory as if they were real experiences.
- The participants treat the underlying tools as ethically compromised while arguing that the purpose of creation justifies using them.
- Brown instructs viewers to move attention from the head and third eye down into the heart, and to accept whatever the vision arrives as, whether feeling, image, words or intuition.
Full text
We want to use it for creation and and we think that the ends justify the means um in terms of using these particular tools which are problematic towards feeding the imaginal realm with as many visions uh counter visions to what the news is feeding us to what how how the regimes are treating using AI which is already pretty propaganda-ish and scary and to what the future looks like in our collective imagination and Hollywood right now which is pretty dire and pretty dystopic. Well, I think we've got enough people to start. It should be fun. Yeah. Should be a loose, fun, lively conversation is what we were thinking amongst friends.
Amongst friends and other Yeah. friends. Uh yeah. So everybody, welcome to our, you know, my liinal news feed here. And I'm here with Ari Kushner and Skyler Brown, who are both old friends. Um, and we are doing a course together next month on how to produce short, impactful, socially, and spiritually conscious AI videos. Yeah. Um, and Ari has been making waves in the world with his um videos going back to the the Trump drinking Iwasa. That's still actually that's still the one that I show people all the time just because the um the photos of Trump in his like Indian shirts and like you know with his beard is just like too hilarious.
Um but yeah, there was a whole bunch. What's that? When we've shown those to an audience that gets a big laugh when he comes in and yeah, the second act his new outfit, his new look is like that is insane. I don't think that's going to happen in his life. There was actually uh I just visited a few weeks ago Ari did a presentation in the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens and somebody had a kind of interesting push back. No, actually it wasn't even a push back. They were even talking about your material. They were talking about using Sora and creating like fake memories.
This sense that those fake memories almost began to feel like real memories if they saw themselves in some kind of scene or something. And you know I when when you originally started doing these videos I had mixed feelings. Some people also voiced those mixed feelings in the comments and so on that in a way um it could create a false sense of like you know maybe things are okay somehow like maybe these guys aren't so bad. They do have this potential for empathy or enlightenment or whatever and we might actually like numb people out a little a little bit more in a strange way. Um but um you know that was I I had that qual at first but then over time I mean our whole situation is just so ridiculous at this point that I felt um you might as well try to use these figures and work with that those archetypes and those energies that are coming through through that that that dimension um in however you can to kind of offer a different idea.
But Ari, you want to maybe just start and talk a little bit about your your your your you know your inspiration and your process, all that stuff? Yeah. And I'd love to address that with you also because they kind of are a reflection of each moment. And that one, the Trump one was a reflection of August of 2024, you know, where he was candidate Trump where you could see he was gaining momentum again. Um, and I was dealing with like, oh, he's going to probably be president again because we don't there was no, it was just hard to imagine between the Biden Kamla thing that it was going to work.
So, um, it was kind of me coming to terms with him again. Um, and that's where it came from. Uh, realizing that you could do it. It was the first week that Grock had come out and you could do it. And also me coming to terms with uh, him. So, kind of like working out the stuff and and seeing him in a different light. But, you know, I wouldn't make that piece right now. You know, like the piece that I made this summer, a summer later was the the MAGA ballroom 2028, which hits a lot harder. And that was kind of my point to the person in the comments um who was like, it shows them in this way that I don't want to see Elon and Trump.
It's like, well, um, I get it. And at the same time, like this is the stuff I'm making now because this is this summer felt very dark and and very uh you know, it was sort of like the the the ice rays and the it it it had a much darker it's kind of like changed now even like I wouldn't make ballroom now like we're in a different I'm trying to figure out if I should make something for Christmas. I had the idea of the Christmas Carol with Epstein and Trump and Epstein as as Jacob Marley as Jacob Marley and it goes who who would be the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future for him. Maybe we could maybe in the comments the people who are here the 50 or so people could offer up who they think cuz I'm still open to it but I haven't felt like that. Usually I feel like it's inevitable and I have to make it and I haven't felt that with this one but I love the idea.
So, if we could figure out who the ghosts of uh the Trump Christmas Carol, who would his ghosts would be, the past ghost could be somebody like Roy Khan who taught him everything and ended up in I mean, I you know, a lot of people think that he may have had Ivanka bumped off, right? He used to apparently talk about pushing his, you know, wives or whatever down the stairs and ending their lives. And yeah, but when she died in this, you know, weird circumstance, he buried her on his golf course. Oh, that's right. That was very strange. So he wouldn't have to pay taxes. So the golf course like a cemetery so he doesn't have to pay.
I mean, it's like So she would be a great one. You know, we'd have to ask permission to to make sure we're doing the right kind of magic. uh um present could be the the MAGA voters who are having second doubts who are you know like the the ones who who are not having a great Christmas because of inflation because they lost their jobs or you know buyers what is it called the buyers regret remorse remorse um and the future who would be the ghost of the f you're the most well the in the in the Christmas Carol right the ghost of the future is veiled you never see that on I don't think probably Musk's little little son right the one who kept showing up thought of him too as like no as tiny Tim are there any good ideas in the chat for uh nothing's come up nothing nothing's come up yet I think maybe we have to warm people up a little bit so if you want to if you want to see Ari's um videos a lot of them are featured on his Instagram page which I think is just his name Ari Kushner k the Maggot Ballroom was a really good one and that that one seemed to get a lot of traction, right? That one like Yes, that's the most recent most viral one. Um and then you know I I've done so overarching is um I have uh been doing these AI experiments for over two years now and before that I've I've run a production company called missing pieces um and have 20 years experience in short form content and creating these experiences and learning how to tell stories in a very compressed uh way.
So I you and I went to film school and I'm an editor. I love editing. And so all these things came together for when the AI um started to get good enough to for me to I was pretty bottled up in terms of expressing myself. So I was able to express myself um and with the Trumpa starting with that one and then the Elon one and some of the other ones um was quickly along with Skyler and our mutual friend David Sage who has written some of them like the BB Netanyahu one. Uh the first couple were transmutations of leaders and then I expanded from there.
Um so I was able to express myself and a lot of people it resonated with a lot of people and a lot of people started reaching out and and it seemed like it was it was offering a place where it wasn't quite satire and it wasn't quite um the other thing that I would get criticized for. You know, it's not like it's it's like I'm trying to make I'm trying to create an alternative reality where the impossible is possible and where um we can we can uh digest and and transmute if we're talking about alchemy cuz you called it the mastering the the alchemy of AI storytelling. I do believe we believe that it's alchemy what we're doing. These are digital spells, you know, um to show the culture and the leaders in a different light because I believe that if we don't have alternatives to the present or the future, all we have is doom scrolling the news, which is pretty doom, gloom and doom and the future is all dystopian in the culture and in the AI. If you type in show me the future, you see a very bleak version of the future.
So, if that's what we're locked into, we just don't have alternatives. So, the need is to create alternatives. And with this course, the hope is between Skyler's experience, which we'll talk about the practices, the embodiment, the expertise there, your expertise, Daniel, and and your ability to kind of like galaxy brain and and and and tie it to the occult and my expertise as a storyteller with this these new AI tools. Can we gather a group of people um 50 or 100 people and teach them these tools so that they too can become part of this team light effort? this this counter uh insurgent uh storytelling effort against the darker forces.
Um now we're using a tool that's controversial, but we're using like all tools, it can be used for destruction or creation. We want to use it for creation and and we think that the ends justify the means um in terms of using these particular tools which are problematic towards imag feeding the imaginal realm with as many visions uh counter visions to what the news is feeding us to what how how the regimes are treating using AI which is already pretty propaganda-ish and scary and to what the future looks like in our collective imagination in Hollywood right now, which is pretty dire and pretty dystopic. So, we need it. I feel like we need it. I normally wouldn't do a course.
I resisted doing a course for over a year, but you uh with your your powers of persuasion and and bringing Skyler along made me feel like we can, the three of us can actually not just teach people how to tell these stories, but how to embody uh and the actual transformation. Yes. and AI and how to relate to AI which I think you should talk to a little bit about which is just as important in a way like the agency part. I mean now we're all watching this show um Pluribus Plurabus which Daniel you wrote about and we just watched the first two or three episodes and it's clearly like some kind of AI metaphor. This is it's her against the AI.
Um, and you can you can see how important she's grasp grappling with the human agency. Um, and what is left of the individual versus this collective thing. So, that's a very important thing. When I use these tools a lot, Sky notices. I was on a deadline to working on the short film for this contest a week and a half ago and pushed it to the edge and I became pretty disembodied, you know. So it it really is touch and go and it's delicate and you we see a lot of people losing their minds and ending up in uh in really bad shape because of what Chad GBT tells them or Gemini or whatever.
So we really need to be careful. We're touching we're playing with what is it the the technology of the gods with without the wisdom without the wisdom of the gods. Yeah. Maybe you could Well, hold on. I want to see what Daniel's That was beautiful by the way. Thank you. I love that. Um, yeah. I mean, I guess I I was going to, you know, you know, pass the buck to Skyler a little bit, but um um yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, Skyler, I'm kind of even surprised because you got really into like embodiment and nature and so on, like um you know, I'm surprised you're even dragged in making mandelas.
She's like making mandelas and hugging trees. Now, you can do that with AI. You just say, "Make me a mandola, you know, flowers and stuff." No, no. I'm going to make the the people in the course make mandelas in nature like be one of our assignments, you know. Yeah. We need to balance it and we also maybe you you speak to this because this is a very important not lose our humanity and our connection. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I like how you frame it, Daniel. It is surprising to me too that I'm sitting here and that like I have to do this like little check where I'm like, wait, what am I doing?
Um, yeah. But as Ari said, I mean, I I began to notice the effect working with the technology had on him because we live together, because we're partners. And um, yeah, was very like in my space, you know, and I was like, okay, well, let's deal with this. And so like from like very simply speaking, we're talking about grounding, we're talking about breathing, we're talking about, you know, disconnecting from the technology is very speedy. Um, so I noticed like a speediness in Ari when he's been working with it a lot. And so like, all right, let's go for a walk. Let's go hug a tree. Let's go make a mandola.
So that's at one level. It's just that it's like the physiology. um it's like um yoga of of working with this tool and then um you know there's also the alchemy and the transmutation part and and the resonance like being true to um well I mean like as you know I also like have a background in strategy and advertising futurism and and so I'm very interested in the culture um and so culture change is also important to me like this alchemy part um and there's like a fidelity to the human experience including the emotional ex like attunement of these videos. So Ari will often pass videos by me and I'm like, "No, like that's psychopathic." Like that. No, I can't feel that character at all.
Or where's the feminine? Where's the feminine? Where's the nature? Like no. Um because the technology defaults partly I think because of who made it and where it was made to a very sterile not natural and masculine kind of like that's the default mode of the technology and so um yeah I think it's it's experimental like I would invite us as a group during the course to watch and pay attention to um you know where we want to insert more nature and the elements and the body and emotions into our storytelling and also you've done a lot of work in group coherence and get in and taking groups facilitation and and coherence of large groups and I think this is key here because if we can get a level of coherence with the collective uh I think we can get really pr even Daniel in the thing that we did in the summer we got some great ideas out of that you know just that hour and the follow up on the what's up like people were just lit up and all these ideas and I think that was the birth of the this course.
So the hope is um can we get a level of coherence and can you harness help us harness that cohes and guide that coherence so that we can create as yeah without being pluribus without being plur without turning into pluropus is is is very fascinating because there's like I you know I noticed I have the full range of like feeling kind of like horror from their joint condition but then also kind of like envious at the same time. Same. Same. I was like, I want to be one of those. Yeah. You kind of juxtapose between like, wow, it would be so great um to to be in the, you know, it's a metaphor of many different What are you making there, D?
Are you making some tea? I was going to make myself a cup of coffee. I knew it. I was like, he's making a cappuccino. Yes. Um espresso. Espresso. I totally felt that. Yeah, we're already plurus, Daniel. We're high mind already. Yeah. So, so this is important. The question of coherence is important. The question of not losing your identity and your individual gift is important. And I have a particular question which is, you know, can you teach? I mean, this is something you and I talked about and this took me a little bit to get through is I feel like what I do is quite unique and so I don't know if I can teach it but you convinced me because you do do these writing courses and Sky has done a lot of embodiment and subtle body courses and that's even harder to teach uh that you can teach these things you know and even now we were listening to this thing telepathy tapes about healing and then we were listening to an old um lecture about healing and the the the the the the the person was making this case of everyone can heal.
Everyone he can turn everyone into a healer because it's just a coherence thing and the energy runs through you. And so in the end it's like can everyone be a a storyteller? You know, and he says some will heal better than others of course, but and so some will create better stories than others. Editing is an art form that's taken me 25 years to master. Can I teach people how to edit? Sure. Can they edit the way I edit? Probably not, but it's enough to get people going and playing. Play is really an important way. Yeah. Having fun. Yeah. Yes. Like Ari, maybe you could say, you know, this started for Ari through play with his daughter.
Like he began making the AI films for fun and reclaimed a lot of his like a more immediate um like a more immediate relationship to his creativity. like the tool allows you to have the vision and execute so quickly. And so they were making little movies. She'd be like, "Oh, and now the cats can do this and now they say this." And so um yeah, I think that spirit of play is something we would like to encourage into the space. Uh yeah, because it can be heavy otherwise. Exactly. And that's the beauty of the AI stuff, having been a filmmaker and having worked with filmmakers and having been on sets with hundreds of people, the machinery, the agencies, the clients, the you like it's like painting.
It's more like writing or painting, making AI uh shorts because it's just your idea, the vision, and that's what we're going to also get attuned to. It's like we want to channel in a we want to download, let's say, um these these ideas from the higher places, you know, like there's, you know, there's sort of like two schools. There's like of artists. There's like whatever comes I'll I'll do, right? And then there's like that's the Stephen King school. Yeah. Like Stephen King all right. Whoever is nearby or like Trump feels like that like whatever is near takes over his his uh psyche. Um, we want to call in specifically and and do it as a sacred thing and call in these higher, let's call it higher realms or higher sources of inspiration so that we can create the more beautiful world so that we can create these visions, these alternative visions so that we can transmute using the alchemy of storytelling, the current situation for ourselves.
You know, it's part therapy, part we need it. We really desperately need it in the culture. I sometimes I'll I'll sit there and be like someone's going to do it and nobody will do it and I can't believe I'm the only one that has to go and do the like response to the Trump poop video or something like that, right? Like there has to be others, you know, that are thinking like, well, it's karma. If you if you crap on people, you get crapped on. That's how karma works. And so I have the chance chance I have to make the video where you know he's in a kind of horror movie where he gets um the nightmare scenario um because he did because he made that provocation um co what goes around comes around and a lot of people got that in the comments.
So I'm often working with these um with karma you know Trump MAGA ballroom is about karma action and reaction. you see Steven Miller and then you cut to people Latinos for Trump who voted for Trump and now they're arresting her the the the the father or the cousin, you know, which has happened now. So it's like you you action and reaction for every action there's an opposite and equal reaction. Um this is a you know so for me there's always a deeper bigger message. It's not like we're just going to make propaganda for a side or we're just going to Yeah, it has to be post-political in some way.
And I understand that like you know uh the the the kind of counterargument to that but we got to get out of the polarization post uh politics thing into a bigger thing. And this is a way to suggest that is film video AI shorts are a very powerful way to suggest that you know or to to feel that because you know it's an experience like it takes you on a journey. The story takes you on a journey. Yeah. Um I mean I liked what you were just saying about how the AI video making process is closer to you said writing or kind of painting in a way.
Yeah. Um yeah because basically I mean ultimately you're tren you know a lot of it is just transferring pros into uh into into image into matter in a way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious to see um you know, when I when I did these writing seminars, um after a while, I actually was very impressed by how much better people got. And it was cool because like my mother used to teach graduate writing to, you know, people who were like just in their 20s who just went from college to graduate school. And she would always be very frustrated because they didn't really have much to say.
And even if they learned the mechanics, it was still there was still kind of like not much content there. When I did the writing courses, it was people in their like, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s, even 70s who had a lot of rich um, you know, life experience to draw upon. They just didn't have the um mechanics for writing. And I and I saw people get a lot better really quickly. But sometimes also like I would finally people feel were like, "Oh, well, like, you know, I'm really impressed now. I totally think you could write a book and I' a book I'd want to read." And so on.
And then they would kind of like stop at that point, you know. So that was sort of interesting. You know, I guess yeah, people people the creative process I think people are a lot of times maybe just scared to unleash their own creativity into the world, you know. Yeah. But maybe maybe the somewhat anonymous nature of these videos. I mean, you know, I guess one question is like if people learn these skills but then apply them to a workplace situation or to something more commercial, you know, for me that's kind of like sale, like you know, that's not our intended purpose. But I think that's some that people probably will do that, you know, because that's just going to happen.
Um, so I don't really have a problem if people uh do that. Um, but yeah, I mean um it feels like um you know, there are a lot of other veins. I mean, you know, you're doing these kind of like photo realist style that often has, you know, these, you know, representational figures. I' I've discovered also ones that have more of like like a handdrawn style that maybe use different types of imagery and so on. So, I'm really wondering, yeah, you know, what the full range is of what what one could do. I mean, um uh yeah, there's been this is making me think there's there's been a few.
One thing that I want to in uh impart is that the kind of AI videos that I want to make are videos that you would never and want to teach in a way are videos you would never be able to make otherwise without the AI cuz you can go out in there and and learn and make a film. I mean you can't make the Trump ballroom or the Iawaska one like that's just not a thing or love force one you know with the with the plane and the healing and the aliens. Like there's only one way to make that and it's with AI. And so, but there are like you're saying different modalities. So, we will learn here's how you, you know, to prompt and when you learn to prompt, you really can prompt in any style.
So, you know, well, you probably use Nanoan Pro is right now, you know, the the the main best one, but it can do everything from Yeah. From this is this is to get a still. So, the way it works is we're going to get a great still first and and we're going to learn a little bit about composition and and shot composition and and basic storytelling, which applies to everything. And then once you have a great still, you take it into either um BO3 or you know Clling just came out with a new model that's very good or there's Sora there's a couple you know and we transform that still into a five or 8second video depending or 10-second video depending on the program we're using and there we need camera moves and we need to un to know the language of you know what what effect does a zoom in give you on a character that or versus just leaving the camera alone or going around or these kind of things. So, we'll practice these things.
But you're right, we don't just want to state in in like live action representational type thing because it can do anything. We saw there's some great one that I think I sent you of the painting like a moving painting, you know? Someone did one of Van Go and someone did one of just like it looks like oils that are moving that we can put if somebody can find it can put it on the chat. There's people are discovering nearly every week a new, you know, this is the magic of it. We could discover someone could discover a uh a texture or a a look and feel that you just haven't seen before, you know.
Yeah, it's crazy. I mean the other thing I would say is I think it would be nice in this course too to play with the art of transmission like really like not just the at the level of content like storytelling just like you know A then B happens and C happens as a result you know like actually bringing the story from the heart. Yes. and being very clear about intention because just then you said we start with a still but actually we start with the idea the vision where that's coming from what the intended result is and yeah and this is where I feel like Daniel you're so I took one of your writing courses and during co and I thought you were an incredible teacher by the way yeah I like it's part of your genius actually is teaching um and So, well, you have that, too. Yeah.
I mean, I love like I love this part before even we get like the refinement of the story where it's coming from and like helping like really transmitting the intention from Yeah. this the soul level for me like like what is it that the thing that you really want to say like through that creative channel and then it might be a poem that people write and then illustrate right with the video. We've done a lot of that where I channel a poem and then Ari has put visuals to the poem. It's more abstract. It's very beautiful. It's a beautiful way to bring your words to life.
So I think there are many art forms that we can um uncover and help people Yeah. bring forward. Yeah. I think we can activate people and we can um find like you have done in the writing and you have done in the subtle energy and subtle body and embodiment courses. and I haven't done this, but I will only do this because I'm with both of you and we are going to not just teach what a zoomin is because that's so boring to me at the end of the day. Like if we were just doing a typical if I was doing a typical course, I'd be bored by it, you know, because I don't like teaching people just the basics of storytelling unless the storytelling is going to be for transformational purposes, which I what I feel like the opportunity is here at.
So that's the by by the way if people who are uh you know tuning into this want to ask a question uh please do so in the chat the chat is open for questions but how do you square away and I don't actually have an answer for this to be honest the uh seems to me this very kind of like um like un unfortunately I mean I I get a lot from AI and I use it all the time in my research and um uh it's been an incredible tool for me uh but I do have this feeling of it of it having a kind of malevolent uh undertone, you know, when you have like um I recently moderated a discussion around this book, if anybody builds it, everybody dies by these two AI experts who think that if you know, if we if we achieve artificial super intelligence, it has like a very large percent chance of driving humanity extinct. Um there's a book by um yeah, I mean Kate Crawford, one book, Atlas of AI, around the ecological consequences, which is were quite devastating. um this uh you know obviously there's also what's happening with work uh the sense that it's going to make a lot of jobs obsolete um you know even like Bernie Sanders just issued a report and uh even the figures that he came up with were like staggering like 50% of nursing jobs and you know all these people you know just the nurses it's just like it's like there's no consideration for the human touch you know for the care the immeasurable like that which cannot be measured. Like how are you going to replace a nurse with an AI? You know, it's just like this is it's like mindboggling to me, but ongoingly not new.
That's not new news. But we're already we're already seeing it with like, you know, drivers, you know. Oh, yeah. It's all it's already happening. Well, and teachers, I mean, you know, it's like the difference between learning from a human. So, yeah, I get that. Yeah. Go ahead. I mean a lot of people in my extended circles are almost feeling like the best thing is just to either avoid the technology um I guess yeah or um uh like even my daughter she you know she uses it obviously here and there but you know she really doesn't like it like a lot of my younger friends are really allergic to it actually so um then I felt a little bit guilty about doing the course like am I actually leading people into like a you know a bad path you know towards this AI future and I'm just kind of curious um then you know even when you're like trying to do good videos I do get a weird feeling like an undertone of soullessness like you know there there sort of charactes there's always sort of like lubrious is that the right word kind of quality to to to AI um stuff um yeah I'm just curious for for you Ari and Skyl also how do you square away you know the value in using this thing at this point in time with everything we know about it, you know, with Yeah.
the the sort of sort of downsides of it. Yeah. Well, I think one thing is we have to focus on the actual tools that we're going to be using, which are generative AI for stills and images and sound. And some of those are problematic in the sense that um of the copyright issues and all the stuff that's coming up and some of them are ethical like uh Moon Valley which we can use um which friends of mine are have built um ethically trained model on and and so everyone's compensated and it's done right and we'll see more of that also. But yeah, it's sort of like this is the conundrum of our time.
It's like we're all guil right now. are talking through a device that has a conflict mineral in it and everyone here is listening to it with that and we've accepted that you know somehow the the the is equal is more important than to shut down all the i Phones or whatever and I'm not saying this is the exact comparison because of the conflict mineral in it. um everything mo the whole modern system seems to be problematic at its core and you've written a lot about this where it's like you know revolution and and do we start over or do we take the existing system and so I feel like that I feel like you where it's like let's take the tools and use them for good because the the the the dark forces are very well organized and these are tools that can be used they're probably being funded by dark forces and being used for nefarious uh purposes but can also be transformational and be used by team light if we all cohhere in the right way, channel the right thing and put out the right kinds of stories. How else is the world going to change but in the imaginal and the writing in the way we show up into the world and the healing and the trauma that work that we do and in the stories that we tell like that's where it starts for me. Let me also just say that I would love to hold that tension in our workshop.
Yeah. You don't have to hide from it. Yeah. I think like that like we can actually work with that in the field like we can transmute or explore or you know like hold the tension within ourselves like yeah we don't have to act like it's not there. Yeah. Um I certainly feel it. I will say um I actually got a message which is one of like I got a message early on when Ari was working with these tools. Wait, like a text message or like a message or No, I was like your guys and your guides. Yeah, these were my guides. Not my guys. Not your guys.
Yeah. No, we were sitting in a a Tribeca film festival like a year and a half ago watching the AI shorts and I got like just all of a sudden this psychic very strong message that was you have to deal with this That's how my guides talk. So, um and it hit me viscerally. I thought I was going to throw up. I didn't want to do it. Um, I was actually kind of freaking out and like my friend Quanita says, "Your mission isn't always something you want to do." Um, and I, you know, I felt it on that level. Kind of what Ari was saying, it was like it's here.
Like, you got to deal with this And so, I'm I'm figuring out what that means for me. Um, and at any moment I could jump ship. I also, Daniel, have noticed a lot of the beautiful, brilliant young people around me, including my own daughter, 15 years old, are pretty anti and not really using it. She has never watched one of Ari's videos. And early on, I was sending her the videos cuz I thought she would enjoy them cuz they're funny or whatever, uh, pop cultury. And she's interested in politics. She's worried about things, you know, and she never watched one. And I at first I was like kind of I I didn't understand that and then I stopped asking her to watch them um because I realized that there was something like deep in her that was in resistance like didn't want to.
And so yeah, so I mean we could jump ship, you know, like it's kind of a moment but to moment experiment and at the same time um yeah, I feel like if I don't do this, you know, because I didn't want to do the course at first, but if I don't do it, then the darker people are just going to get lured into these other places where people are going to teach people how to do this and not give them any of the metaphysics that you Daniel have and Skyler all the practices and embodiment and they're just going to become puppets for even darker to come out. So then people are just going to use it as like yeah what let's come up with a story you know it's just like vomiting all this not stuff and and more and more of the dystopian stuff will just or the slop as they call it will fill the uh the feed. So it it we have to the forces of of light are always disorganized and small and can't get along with each other and are it's like Daniel how many how many conferences have you been not invited to because you've been too honest you know it's like it's like yeah it's like you you don't the team light is a mess the dark forces are super well organized by the way military position global the team is a total mess. can barely talk to each other. And when they do come together, it's hard to get coherence and there's issues and there's interference and then it falls apart and then you have your little pod here and I have my little pod there and John Churchill's over there with the planetary dharma and he's here and we're trying to talk to each other, you know, really.
So, we need version of it. We need we need to become Plurbus. Uh, wait, we have some like Plurbus. We have some comments and questions. I didn't even quite see them. They were scrolling. Um Pat Ryan, when we accept AI replacement in healthcare and music wherever, we only do so because our human capacities are in atrophy. People are more machine-like. As machines, AI develop humanlike capacities. Seems like one worthy thing you all could explore is methods to reattach us to more primal earthbound aspects of being of being human. So embodiment limits ecological limits code we brought home uh I let's see some more let's address that because that is what work and projects comments okay go ahead oh yeah no I couldn't agree more I mean that's I think that's and I think you know that was why that's why Ari wanted me to join that's why I wanted to join also I just enjoy you all so much But I think we can have a lot of fun.
But um yeah, I totally agree that the human so many of our human abilities have atrophied and our sensitivities and our empathy like we have superpowers as humans. And you know that was one of the questions that was very big initially when AI, you know, um hit us was oh well what what will this help us learn about being human? Um, and I'm really interested in that question. And, um, to that end, I would mention Bonita Royy's. Oh, yeah. I was gonna say, yeah, her new we should have her as a guest um, in one of the um, in one of the course, the breakouts or whatever.
Yeah. Like she's she's trained up an AI based on her body her life's work um, that identifies the malware in human thinking from modernity. like this is modernity's um glitches in the mat, you know, the the the malware is a great word for it in human thinking. And so um what's it called? Can someone put it on the chat? Like G Senv, I think maybe somebody can find it and put it on the chat cuz we are on the Bonita Roy. Um but it's like we couldn't see that. Like she's always talking about the fact that you need a nonhuman intelligence to show humans our blind spots and that can be plants, that can be animals, that can be deities, it could be angels, and it can be AI.
You know, it's like we need something outside of ourselves to reflect back to us. And her model happens to be trained up on uh Yeah, it's brilliant. So, we should run the stories through her the stories that we come up with daily run through. We should bring her in in that moment maybe second or third session and have everyone run through beforehand through her AI for feedback. Yeah. Because it kind of like debugs it debugs right the modern malas through the AI. use of AI for good that she who's also a person who works with horses and is super farmer is doing because she realizes if she doesn't do this we're going to have the disembodied you know modern Malays uh chat GPT and no counter to it you know no action to counter that have you run have you run through your stories not yet right not yet she suggested it she's like put your work Yeah, I want to do it.
Next time I have one, I want to run it through. That's why I was asking about the uh the ghost of uh uh Christmas Christmas Carol Trump edition uh Christmas special. You just did a uh a piece for a contest, I understand, that Google was holding about AI. Yeah, I wanted I wanted to push myself and me and uh David had come up with a script that he had kind of like brought through uh in the way that I want to um and maybe we could have him as another um guest to help us with that how to bring through these kinds of stories. that fell very far out and it fit with the theme of this uh it's called the 1 billion summit and it's an AI film festival that's offering it just closed a million dollars for a 7 to 10 million 7 to 10 minute short about the future and about invisit there were two themes you could choose from and the future theme rewrite the future was perfect for this story and the technology got just good enough with the nano banana pro arrival that we could actually make this story but it took everything we had to finish on time for a Friday.
It's still in like eight 8-second chunks, right? Huh? Is it still in 8-second chunks or can you can you can it do more than that? Yeah, you're still in 8-second chunks and you're having to deal with all these issues and you know to get it to look like Oh my god, they were wrestling wrestling and to get it to act. I mean, this is the thing is like we we'll learn the two ways to get acting now. You can basically um you can film yourself or film a friend who's an actor and then with Runway Act 2 or the other one that just came out from Nvidia, you can then kind of avatar in the avatar yourself.
Oh wow. Into a new world with your phone. Uh and we'll do that. We'll test that because that's more realistic and that's why avatar feels better because it's human captured performances. um motion capture with the world overlaid on top of it versus creating it from scratch. We were trying to create it from scratch because you could only work with Google tools and boy these people can't act. Terrible. One of our friends director is doing a series where he that's gone quite viral where he tries to audition AI actors and it's hilarious because they're so bad. Like you try to get a performance out of an AI actor and it sucks.
You have to trick it. David realized that you have to say like if you say like she says in a sad and solemn way, she's like, "Oh my god." You know, it's like it's like trained on soap operas or something. It's terrible. So, you have to subtly and quietly and calmly and like you have to give it all these adjectives so that it doesn't go off the rails. I mean, two months from now, it might also be all better. That's the thing is like by the time the force starts maybe we get we get a new model and we're working with that and we're all learning that cuz I have to learn it every time a new model comes out I have to Yeah.
I mean, I I'm it brings me back to this question, this ambivalence about the tool and how we hold that in the course because it actually like Ari filmed me the other day with this tool that he's talking about and then deaged me so I could have a conversation with my younger self. So, 50-year-old me and then we used some old photographs and and then I spoke and then he made the 20-year-old me. And as she was coming into formation, it was like a really um like a lot was happening for me. First of all, she still felt even when she ended up looking like me around my 20s, she was soulless. there was no there there like the AI could make me very beautiful in terms of having this like smooth skin and whatever but the spark wasn't there and so then we asked it to give it a spark and it looked demonic cuz it literally put a light in my eyes so like but that was like an actual like it it like I can imagine that our participants like I would love to be there for that experience for that you know like there's some holding that needs to happen there there needs There's some comm like some conversation around that or some processing around that that we can do together as a group.
Things get weird. Yeah. So things get weird. That would be a great thing to say to the hundred or so people that are watching is that we'll have some guests. I mean um I think Doug uh Rushkoff I did his podcast and he offered he wanted to come on. Daniel, I know he's an old friend of yours and uh Bonita Roy I think we want to ask and maybe David and a few other people so that we have these guests also coming in with their unique expertise um and kind of like dropping them in at the right place in the process cuz we're going to be moving from like Sky said from first like coherence and creation of a story from the right place to okay now how do you prompt it in the style that you want in a single image?
image to how do you then turn that into a video to then how do you turn that in video into an edit with other videos and with music? How do you use 11 Labs for voice over? Um how do you use Sunno to help create music? One thing that I found very effective is to to to counter the AI is to always use try to use a human element. So we were doing a project where the voice over is still a human but the images and the video ended up being mostly AI but that counters because you can feel that that voice being very human. So that's like Sky saying with the poem like her voice is is her voice but then we found a beautiful visual abstract way to visualize some of the ideas of the poem and um yeah let's we hope to impart um and open ways in which we can do that together.
Yeah, I've been playing with 11 Labs and Hey Jen, trying to create a digital avatar of myself because there's so many things I would love to get out, but I just don't have the time to like turn them into videos. And also I when I do public speaking, certainly in the beginning, I often start with like, you know, huge boon, but um it does have that soulless quality still unfortunately. Yeah. Let's see. We have some other question comics comments. questions cuz we have a few minutes. Um, let's see. Oh Maybe say the name of the person so that we can address them. I'm going to get some um, somebody swamps here writes, "It's easy to manipulated when you're in panic mode because there's lots of mis misinformation about the potential of this technology." True.
I mean it's a very uh confusing time. Like there are people who think that it's way overhyped. Uh and um um some people think that it's about to eliminate all all white collar jobs for everybody and we'll have like have to have a universal basic income to prevent mass starvation. Uh there's also some people who think that uh and I've been doing some research on this that you know because people like okay well if AI takes all the jobs then that means there's no consumers to buy anything so capitalism just collapses. So apparently one theory is that the AI could also become consumers. Uh so it would just be like super wealthy people using AI to sell uh and buy stuff from AIs.
That's the story we don't want to tell. That's a story you don't want to tell on the course as an example. What's the camera? Maybe sometime sometimes maybe maybe sometimes you do have to tell the really horrible story. I know. Listen, I don't I don't disparage dystopia. I just don't want to see every future be a dystopian one. Give me can't just be Wakanda and one other one in the culture. Like give me like more Wakanda. Yeah, we need we need different versions of the sacred Ptopian futures, you know? Let's let's make some of those. It is. Yeah. It's it's always surprisingly hard to make these uh compelling future utopian visions.
They always feel like they're they're reach uh so Pat Ryan. Oh, Jay asks, "Is it too late to enroll in the course?" Absolutely not, Jay. We're now seeking uh students and um if you go to uh Danielpinchback. substack. com, you can find um the link the link uh and uh we're offering this weekend $200 off. Uh, so the course is $500 for six weeks. Uh, and also we're open to giving people, you know, partial scholarships, even even full scholarships if they really are are in dire straits because we really want people to have access to it. I'm going to send a I'm going to send a a definitive list of tools that we're going to have to subscribe to.
Um, I'm hoping to use either freedic or hicksfield as a kind of these are aggregators that have all the models for images and for video and some for even sound. So then we kind of centralize everything in one of them. Mhm. Um but but um we'll we'll we'll follow up with that. But yeah, maybe you can put the link in the of the course in the in the chat or someone can do that from liinal. All right. Well, if they just go to liminal. news, they can find it. But to get the actual coupon for the discount, I'm not gonna be able to do that. Now they're gonna have to go to um Got it.
Probably my my Substack would be the easiest. Cool. Or yeah, I think I put it in in the body of this email, too, but not everybody got it, I guess. So, somebody asked Pat Ryan, could AI be trained or taught that life itself has intrinsic value? This is the famous alignment problem. Uh, could AI be brought to understand that finite sustainable limits and therefore some measure of material equality is a value? Would this be asking to have AI wish itself to become human? That's beyond my paycheck, as they say, but that's outside of my realm. I can speculate. I think this is what Bonita is after with her.
She's putting all these principles, sacred and and natural laws and and and key things into the AI so that it is valuing life in the same way that the most evolved version of us would, right? As I understand it. Yeah. I don't understand it any more than that. That's the we need like uh I mean Daniel, you're the you're the one that understands this at the most bleeding edge. I again I I'm focused on how do we use these AI Gen AI tools which are limited to uh create really powerful stories to counter the current stories that we see all day. Yeah. Uh because even even the one we've been talking about I mean it's funny it's like Daniel like I feel like over the course of the decades that we've known each other like there have been several times that we've tried to start a new media venture like there's there's been this one thread in a way of like yeah inserting alternative media into the mainstream media morass pass and uh and this feels like a continuation of that same thread.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Know, I' I've tried that again and then I had a literary magazine. I had a web magazine. Um um yeah, we had like a social network. Uh I mean, you know, I'm actually also very intrigued by vibe coding, uh which could allow you to actually build your own kind of network on different principles. Um yeah, I feel that um you know, it's just one of those weird moments in tech where these tools are incredibly democratized and most people haven't really understood that yet. So that's one reason why I felt it was necessary to do this because um you know those moments don't last like eventually the the co-option machine kicks in kicks into gear and somehow there you don't have this type of um opportunity.
So I think it is very important for people to to grasp it when they can. And that's that's one of the main reasons I felt I really wanted to get this course out there now. Yeah. Love that. Uh Gio van Buist or I probably mispronounced your last name. Gio, if you posit that reality is a sort of configuration or condensation of consciousness. What role does AI play here? I experience it as boosting 3Ding my thinking and feeling enabling expression that was not possible for before like the invention of print. Yeah, that's well said, Gio. That's kind of how I uh see it. Uh I mean, there's a big debate over whether AI itself could become self-reflective, self-aware, self-conscious, uh attain consciousness, however you want to look at that.
And some people feel that it may already be showing gleanings in that direction. Um others people feel that it's really just still an imitation machine that kind of feeds off of uh you know, what what we've given it. Uh probably I lean more towards that latter. Um but I mean I I can see the concerns around um and also by the way I mean AI could drive humanity to extinction or do something terrible to us without being self-aware and conscious that it was acting in that way. It would just be doing the way the recursiveness of its programming you know led it to maximize you know certain goals or or whatever it wanted to do.
Um so yeah so in a way in that case let's say AI is not going to become self-aware self-conscious it's definitely a device that reflects us back on ourselves like a mirror and also gives us new possibilities which are like extensions of consciousness in in in different ways and I think that that's the way that I get really excited about it um you know in terms of even doing the these these videos or researching you know for a piece in a way that was not even possible um you know a couple years ago you know. Yeah. And just to reiterate like the interest for me is the bringing the imaginal to life in a near immediate way. And a part of that not just as a act of creation but when done with connection to higher self, higher sources and and to counter uh as a counter movement and to counter the media that we consume every day. It counters the despair.
I feel like the the um like the restoration of agency that I've seen with people, you know, it's like you give them the instrument, the tool to bring like, you know, we wake up, we read the headlines, or at least this is my experience. If I read wake and read the headlines, I feel really disempowered a lot of times. I feel powerless in the face of what's happening. And being with Ari through this time that he's been making these videos has really taught me like he reads the headline and begins to think of the other like other possibilities and it's a mental world you know like it there there's great value in doing that and I think that more people doing that instead of falling into despair which was like I think that's kind of uh where a lot of people are finding themselves at this time. Yeah.
The battleground is our imagination. The liinal the liinal is where the the the battleground is being fought. And if we're back to the sort of spiritual battle, then we need uh we need some tools and we need some practices so that we can Yeah. So that we can be team light spiritual warriors. Exactly. And we can um counter make counter moves. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Somebody said, I read recently, somebody was saying that it's not really red and blue anymore. It's more like sociopaths and empaths. And wow, that's fascinating. You know what's funny is I've noticed um an uptick in empaths coming to me. A lot of highly sensitive people recognizing that the way like Yeah.
Like I feel like I've been training more empaths, healing, doing healing work with more empaths lately. Maybe the Impaths are getting the memo. Yeah, I think it's it's game time. Yeah, dark triads versus Impaths. Um well, listen, we've been talking for an hour here, so maybe we'll wind up for today. Thanks, guys, for making the time to do this. I'm super excited about uh you know, working with you on this. I think it'll be great. Um and yeah, anybody watching, you know, please, you know, sign up. If you need more info, you can um email us at info@hell. It's elimin uh or contact me through uh Substack.
And um yeah, so you know, this weekend we're offering uh $300 off the tickets, $500. Uh if somebody really wants to take the course and they're on like a fixed income or things are just going bad for them and they can't afford it, you know, we can we can make a partial scholarship or, you know, even a full scholarship if need be. We really want people to access the course. We really also really want young people to do that. Do do it. I mean, I noticed in a lot of my courses, I get people in their 50s and 60s. So, if you have like a kid or a cousin or, you know, you know, you could you could buy one for a kid, they can watch as a cohort.
Uh, I'd really love to see, you know, young people, you know, making use of these tools. Maybe in maybe in January, February when things are slowed down, they would want to uh, you know, sit sit. Yeah. Yeah. Great holiday gift. Well, we'll we'll do we'll do a Christmas sale. That's a good idea. Christmas sale. And also I would say you know Daniel you've mentioned that we want to do scholarships just like also if you happen to have means like if you can pay the full price of the ticket that's really helpful to us to cover. Um yeah it's like let's let's pay at the level of our means.
I I find that usually people do to be honest I've given people contact me if they really have a hassle otherwise they recognize that it's a reasonable amount. Do we do we have like three or five extra minutes, Daniel, or do you have to run? I've got three or five extra minutes. Yeah. Okay. I'm feeling like we should do some kind since we have Sky here who's the um you know um does visualizations and meditations and maybe you could send us off with something to put us in the and you know if people want to drop off now and they got what they needed they can but those who want to stay for like a five minute visualization meditation maybe Sky can take us there get a taste of what what we could do together.
Okay. You down with that? Yeah that sounds sounds good. Oh that's beautiful. Okay. Um, well, Daniel, did you have anything else you wanted to say? I loved what you I loved that how you were wrapping us up there. Okay. All right. So, for anyone who wants to join us, just make yourself comfortable and we feel your seat, your feet, your seat. Take a couple breaths. And if you've been with us and listening to the conversation, just letting the the words, the content settle like snow on a snow globe. Yeah. And just feeling into your heart, which is a collective organ actually. So when we feel into our hearts, we can connect with each other and also to the heart of this community that we're building that's still in formation right now.
And we're hoping that you can feel our intention. I think we did this conversation to come together and share a little bit of where we're coming from. And if you feel resonate with what we've been sharing and you feel called you can join us and also you can just wish us well. Uh we're all in this together. So in this recognition that we're all in this together, may this course be a blessing. May it reach people it's meant to reach and may it take us to higher level. of coherence with each other and uh divine plan. You want to give a practice like a visualization practice feeling like something simple to I mean for me it's visualizing at the heart.
So yeah, just like taking the vision down through the body from the the fleshy eyes, right? And even from the third eye or spiritual eye into the eyes of the heart. Um and even if that isn't quite clear to you, just trusting that shift, that move of attention from the head down to the heart. And your vision may come as a feeling actually. It may come as thoughts. It may come as words. It may come as images, messages, intuition, also feelings. And uh yeah, that's a good I think that's the place where we want to be connected when we're making our creations. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks.
Feels like a good send off. Yeah. More. Okay. Great guys. Uh well um yeah we'll we'll we'll we'll figure out something else soon and um um happy that everybody joined us today and yeah you can message me uh message us with questions hello liinal. news or info@liml. news um and the kind of latest update on the course is also at liml. news or on my substack and uh there's a discount this weekend if you want to join for it off uh and uh yeah really excited about this. I think we're going to get a lot of amazing people uh on board. That's always been fun of these courses is the the cohort that comes together and the shared field of attention and and curiosity and also genius often.
It's really really brilliant people I I learned from. So uh thanks everybody and thank you for putting this together. Yeah, thanks for the investigating and pursuing and and enjoy LCD sound system tonight. Oh yes, we're going to dance. Bye bye everybody. Thanks for watching. Bye.
Automatic transcript, lightly edited for readability. Originally published on the Liminal News channel.